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InläggPostat: lör 09-10-31 11:10 
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yes. but usual PTC glowplugs has self-regulative temperature about 800-900 C. and i don't see anywhere thermal sensors on the fuelrail.

i think:

1. it is not usual glowplugs, with self-regulative temperature 90-120C

we need VIN number of brazilian Polo to find out part number of this glow plug...

2. maybe it is usual glowplugs, but without thermal control ? maybe main computer work like a timer, turning on glowplugs for 5-7 seconds.

but it very dangerous, what will be if relay will stick in closed position? it sometimes happening, espessially with big currents...

PS i think i found numbers:

fuelrail - 032 133 329 J
glowplugs - 032 963 319
injectors - 032 906 031 AA

for engine CCRA Total-flex (Polo e-flex) with E5L option

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InläggPostat: mån 09-11-02 15:49 
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It is possible that it is a special plug, but you do not need a temp sensor or timer to keep normal glowplugs the temperature on ca 100°C:

If you look at the curves of the fast glow plugs below and superimpose both graphs on eachother:
Bild

you see that the current already drops 5-10A between 20°? and 100°C. The controlunit can use pwm and simply cut off the current as soon as it drops too say 40A, and then coninue to turning it on and off this way you get a controlled temperature without extaernal temp sensor. Of course not with a relay but with electronics, in the description it says that mosfes are used, these are very usefull for high currents like this.

Afaik this principle is used in the heating wideband lambda sensors for example.

Inside a fuelrail there is no air so the fuel cannot ignite even if the plug would get too hot. The pressure is controlled with the pressure regulator so even if the fuel would start to boil, it would not create a dangeous pressure inside the fuel rail.

/Aryan

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InläggPostat: tis 09-11-03 11:05 
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Obormot skrev:
300 W total, 100 W each.

video about this system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS5Za2DIGV0


Now we are talkin!!
Seems like Bosch have looked a lot into this forum....!

Exaktly like this I and others have long time envisioned electrical heating to work;
http://etanol.nu/forumrecover/viewtopic ... l%F6dstift
, and it is with simple existing components (electronic circuitboard seems only to be there to make impressions in order to make the retail price higher..)

Bosch now confirms what we have seen!

Also this is cute!!!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwe36Yd-lqg

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Senast redigerad av karlmb tis 09-11-03 11:33, redigerad totalt 1 gång.

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InläggPostat: tis 09-11-03 11:25 
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now we have -4C at night, and at 92% ethanol it starts not very good - i wait about 3-4 min (mid of fuelrail become hot, but ends just warm) - and it starts, but from the 2-nd try and starter works about 7-10 sec.

i can place heaters only to middle of fuelrail - there is no flat place at the ends, and i think it decreases cold start ability.

i add 3 l of gasoline to 38 l of ethanol, and next morning it starts after 3 min of heating and 2-3 sec. of cranking. when car stands all day at -1C, it starts almost immediately after 1 minute of heating.

cold-start function of adapter doubles quantity of fuel when starting and till first seconds, but maybe i need even more.

warm-up time about 1 minute, then i can drive without discomfort, heaters are turned on.

now i will try to use 1-2 l of gasoline to 38l of ethanol.

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http://bioadapter.com


Senast redigerad av Obormot tis 09-11-03 11:40, redigerad totalt 1 gång.

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InläggPostat: tis 09-11-03 11:37 
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What U should remember is that even if U get a good coldstart, in our winter climate, a dead-end FR is needed if U dont want to feed Ur engine with icy ethanol the coming driving.
There is a big, big flow of fuel back to the tank via the fuel pressure regulator, so any heating should be on the high pressure side of the FPR in order to keep the heat where it is needed.
Probably Bosch solution also includes dead end FR.

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InläggPostat: tis 09-11-03 11:45 
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all modern cars already have dead-end furl rail, my too.

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InläggPostat: tis 09-11-03 11:48 
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Obormot skrev:
all modern cars already have dead-end furl rail, my too.


Yes, U are probably right, there is money to save on it too!
Now, combine this with a coolant heat-exchanger, and U can supply hot ethanol all the time in winter!

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InläggPostat: tis 09-11-03 12:04 
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in city-driving fuel consuption is about 4-5 l/hour, consumption of electric heater is about 10-20 W on hot engine - i think it better than intruding to cooling and fuel system, cutting the pipes and adding new pipes.

for dead-end fuelrail.

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InläggPostat: tis 09-11-03 12:22 
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I found a presentation about the Bosch heater here where you can see a dead and fuelrail is used (as many modern cars use nowadays).

http://www.mp.go.gov.br/nat_sucroalcool ... rreira.pdf

A lot of things that we have found out and or suspected are confirmed in this document.

/Aryan

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Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


Senast redigerad av aryan tis 09-11-03 13:32, redigerad totalt 1 gång.

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very good file, like simple F.A.Q. with pictures :)

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InläggPostat: tis 09-11-03 14:43 
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Yes really intreresting!

I did some more reseach and found that some diesel cars use a simple electric coolant fluid warmer (to increase the cabinheaters performance) with heating elements that look like normal glowplugs.

This http://www.aea.org.br/aea2009/downloads ... Araujo.pdf is also a very serious document. Should be translatet completely but did some quick translations wit google translate:

Citat:
1.2.2 Technical solutions possible

The solutions to this problem can be grouped into five categories techniques.

In Category 1, it is proposed to use a more volatile fuel, in critical conditions of operation, to enable the start of the combustion process. The current solution, until then present in all bi-fuel cars national, falls into this category. The advantages are its simplicity, low cost and availability of gasoline stations in Brazil. The disadvantages are the dependence of the User to the extent that it should remember the gas supply system, risks in situations of replenishment of the "six-pack and low reliability of the system components.

Category 2 proposes to keep warm parts of the engine, so that at the beginning of the operation, the liner is facilitated by the contact of fuel with these hot parts. This solution is adopted in the Scandinavian countries, Canada and USA. One of its forms of implementation are known "block heaters". The disadvantages of this solution are the high energy demand, which requires the connection of the vehicle to an external power source, the high cost due to the need for changes in the concept of the engine and also the dependence of the User to remember to connect your vehicle to external sources of energy.

In Category 3, heats the air, so that, in contact with the spray of cold fuel, to promote the vaporization of the same. Depending on the relationship with air-fuel should be a warm air mass proportionally higher, moreover the

process air heating is less efficient and demand large surfaces. The consequences are a high energy and°Ccupy space in the engine compartment, which complicates the lay-out.

A Category 4 is the vaporization of the fuel after injection of the same. This can be achieved by directing the spray on a heated surface, thus promoting the formation of fuel vapor, which is then inhaled along with air from the engine. This solution presents difficulties in ensuring uniform distribution of admixture between the cylinders to control the level of vaporization of fuel in different operating conditions, and affect the design of the intake manifold. There is also the risk of condensation of fuel vapor in the ducts of the intake manifold, increasing the chances of "back-fire."

A Category 5 is the heating of the fuel immediately before the injection of the same. With this approach, we can optimize energy use and improve the control of heating fuel, in different conditions of engine operation. To ensure a safe departure, the need for a minimum amount of fuel preheated to a minimum temperature requires a pre-heating, meaning the need to wait for the User until the process is complete.


1.2.3 The Flex Start

Considering that the vehicle is a closed system with limited availability of energy, we have an automotive market returned to low cost and ability to invest in upgrading the engines limited the implementation of the Flex technology Start we sought a solution within the Category 5.

Additionally, this category of solutions, enables the creation of conditions for°Ccurrence of the phenomenon known as "flash-boiling." This phenomenon°Ccurs when creating a supersaturated state in the fuel when the fuel heated undergoes a sudden change of pressure, nearly constant temperatures, after leaving a fuel injector. This, in turn, triggers this fuel, a breakdown of layers of fluid resulting in a spray droplet diameter very small, of a very highly dispersed and vaporized. The efficiency of this phenomenon depends, in addition to fuel use, fluid pressure, temperature and even pressure inside the intake manifold. The effects can be observed in Figures 9 and 10 showing a spray of ethanol injected at 20°C and 100°C, respectively.

The application of this phenomenon in gasoline had already been demonstrated by SAMENFINK et.al. [6]


Figure 11

The gallery of fuel must withstand the high temperatures reached in the process of heating, fuel pressure and continuous operation with ethanol. Its design allows the optimization of energy consumption in the heating process. It is composed of stainless steel tube, four heating elements and four fuel injectors.

The control unit individually controlled heating through high-performance FETs, each heating element, ensuring the supply of the same amount of energy and uniformity of the temperature of fuel in each injector. It performs all the functions of internal diagnostics of the heating elements and electrical heating circuit.


1.2.4 Results

The results of cold start, the improvement of handling and emissions reduction are presented below. In Figure 12, we have a game of a vehicle stocked with E100 at a temperature of -5.3°C. In this case, preheating lasted 8.7 seconds, the time control unit for heating fuel Gallery New features of the software models of temperature-and energy-Additional activities calibration-management game (optional) Control Unit of departure motor was 2.1 s. In curves can be observed, by the spindle motor, that it responds to acceleration without hesitation, showing the improvement in drivability.


In Figures 13 and 14 there is an extract of the values of HC Total Phase 1 of the cycle FTP75. The curves show the emission instant and accumulated in the same vehicle, where the Flex Start system was now on, sometimes off. Phase 1 was chosen poir represent the heating phase of the combustion engine, cycle emissions. The curves clearly show the benefits of activation of the Flex Start . The vehicle was filled with E100.

Figures 15 and 16, see the summaries of the emission testing of vehicles with 2 different engines a 1.6 L 16V engine and an engine 2.0 L 8V, respectively. The results show significant reductions in the levels of THC and NMHC. The vehicles were fueled by E100.


(my underlining)

_________________
Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


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InläggPostat: tis 09-11-03 16:14 
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as i understand, minimal temp. of cold start on E100 (or 92-93% ethanol) with fuel heating is -5C ?

PS i wrote to Bosch techsupport about fuel rail heaters from Polo E-flex, they answer:

"These pre-heaters are not available yet for sale through independent aftermarket only via VW 4S workshop but still no demand yet."

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InläggPostat: tis 09-11-03 16:32 
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as i understand, minimal temp. of cold start on E100 (or 92-03% ethanol) with fuel heating is -5C ?


Yes the system works well from -5°C with 93% etanol and 7% water, it doesn't say if it worked at lower temperatures at all but with E85 I saw it worked from -30°C and upp.

With pure ethanol and lower temperatures you migh try to raise the fuel pressure so that you could heat the fuel more without boiling or combine fuel and air intake heating?

/Aryan

_________________
Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


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InläggPostat: ons 09-11-04 21:51 
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How nice to see that some finally starts to take up the ideas written here!

I have felt the diffference in fuel temperature of +10 deg C, and +70, with a warm, lean running engine in winter citydriving, and it is hughe!
Everyone who have this experience are not surprised at all for the results and conclusions made in this report.

Have a look at the picture 9 and 10.
This difference is existing all wintertime without preheating of the ethanol, at least of the car was not parked in a warm garage prior to the start of drive!
The big drops in picture 9 may be partly broken down to smaller and partly evaporates during intake and compression stroke inside the engine, but to what degree?
Not broken down drops are burned as they are, giving poor, slow combustion and high HC emissions, even if its not the HC emissions from gasoline, but mainly ethanol.
A big waste of fuel it is at least, which also is reflected in my own experiences with and without effective fuel preheating in winter time.

I think a better demonstration of the need for a continous fuel preheating, also after warmrunning, in cold wheather, than this report, is hard to find...
I also appreciate the selection of Category 5, in front of air preheating, engine heating, another fuel, or hot spot solutions.
A straight forward and very logical conclusion indeed...

If Bosch only added a soldered coolant pipe (connected in series with the line towards the heating element in the coupe) along the FR, energy consumption and wear of the components would be minimized.
But this will come with Flexstart 2.0 perhaps...?

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InläggPostat: ons 09-11-04 22:41 
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now temperature is about 0 ... -2 C, gasoline in ethanol is 2-3%, engine with 3-4 min of fuelrail preheating starts pretty good - in 2-3 second of cranking.

i try to turn off heating when driving - difference is big, driveability decreases, fuel consumption in city mode increases, about 0.8 l/100 km.

middle of fuelrail is hot, but the ends are just warm - i think if heating will be more uniform it will work much better.

power consumption of heaters on hot engine is about 20-30 W.

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