Etanol.nu

Forum för föreningen etanol.nu
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InläggPostat: ons 10-02-24 16:58 
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Blev medlem: mån 08-09-01 22:07
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like in air humidifier.

i think we can take ultrasound module from it,and it will take very small enegry for creationg ethanol fogg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEUzZjHC ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6nprnqJFHs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fENvOZMZ ... re=related

PS how embed video clip from youtube?

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European E85 conversion kit
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InläggPostat: tor 10-02-25 20:38 
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working units:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x1Po-C4 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzgqxEU0 ... re=related

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InläggPostat: lör 10-02-27 10:10 
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This is a really interesting idea!

However, in the humidifiers, the piezo-electric element is immersed in cooling water. I'm not sure if it is healthy for the element to run dry, as it has to, if you mount it in the intake manifold. The element needs to be placed right in front of the injector spray.

I have such a humidifier at home, though we seldom use it anymore, and it has a water-lever switch which turns it off before it runs dry.

On the other hand, the ultra-sonic device is maintenance free. Any impurities gets evaporated along with the fluid. That's why I don't use it anymore: lime and other metal oxides solved in the water is evaporated into the air and ends up covering everything, especially electrical gear, with a very thin coat of while powdery dust. But the humidifier itself is clean of such residue.

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InläggPostat: lör 10-02-27 12:16 
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i think that installing ultrasonic evaporator near injectors is not good idea for used cars. much problems with overheat, maitenance, and installation.

it will be better to use stand-alone evaporator, connected to mainfold with electric valve.

as i know, it can evaporate water and gasoline, so i think it will not a problem with ethanol.

you can try to fill some ethanol or E85 to evaporator, chill it in refrigerator or outside, turn on and try to burn this fogg, maybe by electic spark.

PS for "home use" you should use distilled or filtered water for this humidifier, most of them has water filter inside.

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InläggPostat: lör 10-02-27 12:27 
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stand-alone evaporator can be connected to main fuel system with level sensor and electric valve for automatic refilling.

evaporator and mainfold valve will turns on and off with starter.

any maintenance or attention from user or driver :)

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InläggPostat: mån 10-03-01 20:45 
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Blev medlem: fre 08-02-15 13:20
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Den här idén tycker jag också är utomordentligt intressant!


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InläggPostat: mån 10-03-01 21:34 
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The evaporating E85 will probably not generate any significant pressure, so in order to have the ultrasonic inducer to make vapor, the opening between the intake manifold and the E85 evaporation chamber cannot be too small. Unless...

Watch the videos in the opening post, and notice how air is forced into the evaporation chamber by a fan.

I think it would work, but then you'd need some kind of blower to pass the E85 vapor into the intake manifold.

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En bilmotor utan turbo suger...

"When the going gets tough, the tough get duct-tape." (Dr. Mabuse http://www.skepticfriends.org)


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InläggPostat: mån 10-03-01 22:36 
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we do not need any blower.

while cranking there is a vacuum in intake mainfold.

ethanol fogg will be sucked into mainfold from ultrasound evaporator.

now we using extra gasoline tank for cold startnig, and there is no fuel pump - tank is connected to mainfold after throttle body and vacuum suck fuel from tank very good.

i think construction of evaporator will be cheap, simple and reliable - just small tank, piezo element and easy ultra sound generation scheme.

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InläggPostat: tis 10-03-02 15:21 
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Very interesting! It should need much less enrgy to create ethanol mist with such a ultrsonic fogger as with electric heat.

I wonder if the droplets are small enough to be easily ignited with a sparkplug and if they are smaller than the spray mist created by an fuel injector?

/Aryan

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InläggPostat: tis 10-03-02 15:53 
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droplets are much smaller than after fuel injector.

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InläggPostat: tis 10-03-02 16:52 
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Have you seen these?

http://www.fuelvaporcar.com/

http://fuelvapors.com/best/main_pages/w ... orizer.htm

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Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


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InläggPostat: tis 10-03-02 18:53 
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i think this is not true or not pure true.

i can't see any benefits of vaporised fuel from liquid.

it is better for cold start, but many cars working on LGG and CNG and benefits of gaseous fuel not very big. fuel consumption is even bigger than gasoline.

actually, ethanol have biq cooling properties. this it affects on octane number and on engine thermal mode. and if we will pre-evaporate it, we will loose this effect.

in turbocharged or high compression engines there is no problems to evaporate fuel. in other engines is enough to slightly warm up fuel or air.

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InläggPostat: ons 10-03-03 09:49 
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Obormot skrev:
i think this is not true or not pure true.

i can't see any benefits of vaporised fuel from liquid.

it is better for cold start, but many cars working on LGG and CNG and benefits of gaseous fuel not very big. fuel consumption is even bigger than gasoline.


Do you mean energy consumption or litre / 100 km?
LPG is ca 25.6 MJ/l
petrol 32 MJ/l

This means that 25% more fuel consumtion is unchanged in efficiency. For LPG more ignition advance as well as increased compression can increase he engines efficiency as it burns slower and has high octane just like ethanol.

The most interesting claim of the fuelvapour car is that the engine can run lean (and clean) and still have complete and not too slow combustion with fuel vapour. Extreme lean burning tends otherwise to give a high amount of unburned fuel in the exhaust gases.

Obormot skrev:
actually, ethanol have biq cooling properties. this it affects on octane number and on engine thermal mode. and if we will pre-evaporate it, we will loose this effect.


Not necessarily so, if you provide the engine with fuel mist you still have he cooling effect during the compression stroe of the evaporation, only the smaller dropplets will evaporate easier and quicker and that should even potentially make the increase the engines efficiency as you want to have all fuel evaporated befre combustion. If the evaporation still takes place during combustion, you need extra fuel to have an ignitable mixture and it is slowing the combustion process down and reducicing the engines efficiency. This effect is what I think is a reason why preheating ethanol fuel seems to increase milage.

Obormot skrev:
in turbocharged or high compression engines there is no problems to evaporate fuel. in other engines is enough to slightly warm up fuel or air.


Yes, and in a perfect situation the fuel evapouration is reducing pressure/energy in the compression stroke but completly evaporated at TDC before the real combustion happens :-)

/Aryan

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InläggPostat: ons 10-03-03 10:09 
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yes. usually fuel consumption is +15...+20% to gasoline.

LPG and CNG is fully evaporated fuel and there is no extra benefits about it.

when installers trying to lean mixture, flame speed decreases and output valves and its seats burning out after 5 000 - 10 000 km or even faster.

also it can be damaged when engine long time working on high RMP and load - becouse of lower flame speed and higher temperature in chamber.

i think that usually gasoline is fully evaporated in combustion chamber before ignition - on hot engine. and usually in exhaust gases is very low % of unburned fuel - much lower than 1%.

fuel mist - it is not evaporated fuel. it is what injectors do :) but not so good, as ultrasound evaporator.

in fuel mist size of surface of fuel is extremelly big - so fuel evaporating much more intensive, creates more vapours, and air-fuel mix becomes not too lean for burning. this is good for cold start only.

ultrasound evaporators for using as stock fuel evaporating systems has to be very powerful - and ultrasound will be very powerful, and this is very bad for engine and car construction and health of driver.

very small ultrasound evaporator, working only 2-3 sec. in a day - it is safe, reliable, cheap, low power consumption device.

also it can be absolutely automatical and plugged to stock fuel system - instead of external gasoline fuel tank, user have to fill it once in a month.

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InläggPostat: ons 10-03-03 12:04 
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Obormot skrev:
yes. usually fuel consumption is +15...+20% to gasoline.

LPG and CNG is fully evaporated fuel and there is no extra benefits about it.


Still with 15 - 20% more (LPG) consumption the engine is ca 4-9% more energy efficient.

Obormot skrev:
when installers trying to lean mixture, flame speed decreases and output valves and its seats burning out after 5 000 - 10 000 km or even faster.

also it can be damaged when engine long time working on high RMP and load - becouse of lower flame speed and higher temperature in chamber.


Yes, but that is always a problem with LPG anyway, it burns hotter and valve seats are getting hotter. With higher compression/ more turbulence and earlier igntion the combustion should become faster/better and the exhaust temperature lower.

My old Volvo powered camper rus on E85, unleaded petrol and LPG. It has a cast iron head and no (hardened) inserted valve seats, it does not run lean but the 1.8l engine needs to work hard in the heavy and not very streamlined camper . It is very intresting to see how the exhaust valve seats are wearing. When I run it on LPG i need to readjust exhaust valve play every 2000 km's, with unleaded petrol I need to readjust every 5000km and with E85 I have not seen any wear at all :-)

Obormot skrev:
i think that usually gasoline is fully evaporated in combustion chamber before ignition - on hot engine. and usually in exhaust gases is very low % of unburned fuel - much lower than 1%.


Even if the amount of unburned in the exhaust gases fuel is less than 1% we do not know if he fuel fully is evaporated before ignition. It is very likely that part of the fuel is evaporaed after ignition as a result of the heat from the combustion. This can have a huge effect on flame speed and engine efficiency.

Obormot skrev:
fuel mist - it is not evaporated fuel. it is what injectors do :) but not so good, as ultrasound evaporator.

in fuel mist size of surface of fuel is extremelly big - so fuel evaporating much more intensive, creates more vapours, and air-fuel mix becomes not too lean for burning. this is good for cold start only.


I think this fine mist and thus larger evapourative surface, faster evaporation is always a good thing, not only for cold start. Injection with high pressure will give smaller dropjets and better mist too which als improves engine efficiency.

Obormot skrev:
ultrasound evaporators for using as stock fuel evaporating systems has to be very powerful - and ultrasound will be very powerful, and this is very bad for engine and car construction and health of driver.


I have no idea about the power needed for several litres per hour I gues that is difficult.
Here I see http://www.3stepads.com/222290/buy-a-sp ... ge-filter/ 330 ml for 43 watt
That would mean 130 w/l, I guest that is not unreasonable or unsafe?

Obormot skrev:
very small ultrasound evaporator, working only 2-3 sec. in a day - it is safe, reliable, cheap, low power consumption device.

also it can be absolutely automatical and plugged to stock fuel system - instead of external gasoline fuel tank, user have to fill it once in a month.


Yes I think it is a very cool idea would be very interesting to test if it is efficient enough to coldstart the engine or if the mist still does not evapourate in the comprassion stroke without extra heat.

I tried to calculate the amount of energy that is needed for the evapouration.

A 2l fourstroke engine could (max) compress 1l air/revolution at -25°C this is more than ca 1,4 g
Ethanol has a AFR 9 (E85 AFR 9,8) so ca 0,15 g ethanol per stroke is needed.

The specific heat of ethanol is 2.44 Joule/gram °C. So if you have 0,15g of ethanol at -25 °C, the boiling pint is 79°C you have to add this much energy:
0,15 g * (79 °C -(- 25 °C)) * 2,44 J/g °C = 38 J
The heat of vaporization for ethanol is 841 Joules per gram
0,15 g * 841 J/g = 126 J

In total 164 J revolution is needed :-) .

/Aryan

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Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


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