Etanol.nu

Forum för föreningen etanol.nu
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InläggPostat: tis 09-10-27 23:34 
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Blev medlem: tis 06-12-19 15:54
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we decided to use only PTC heaters and maybe 10-15% additive to alcohol for better cold starting - it is a "bio-additive", not made from oil. it can be mixed with 92% ethanol without any "water problems".
----

Which "bio-additive" are you thinking of? I think of diethylether which could be synthezised from etanol.

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InläggPostat: ons 09-10-28 00:03 
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very easy, just heat up ethanol with concentrate sulfur acid (h2so4) to 140°C.

diethylether have great cold start abilities, "startgas" consisits from 60-80% of diethylether and other is oil, propane and other additives.

but i think it may be illegal to made it "at home" or in small firm - diethylether is medical "****" for anesthesia, and if we want to buy alreade made diethylether, it costs too much.

also we want to try Methyl tert-butyl ether or ethyl tert-butyl ether - it aviable as additive to gasoline and price is not too much.

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InläggPostat: ons 09-10-28 20:14 
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I found this so important and interesting that I gave it a separate thread.

In Sweden the diethylether is readily available in startgas so I don't see a ploblem with that. But here the problem is that ethanol needs to be denaturalized with two substances in order to prevent people from drinking it.

Petrol is -I think- one of the denaturalisers in E85.

The other thing to remember is that petrol makes the flames visible in case of a fire. I do not think diethylether + ethanol give a visible flame?

What we need is something else that makes the fuel undrinkable and preferably gives ethanol fires visible flames (which probably is not so good for combusion?)

/Aryan

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InläggPostat: ons 09-10-28 22:05 
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Blev medlem: tor 08-09-25 23:06
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Ethanol naturally burns blue with a slight yellowish flame in the middle (hard to see), but it definitely burns blue. So there should be no problem with visibility in case of a fire. What petrol does is that it makes the flame yellow in case of a fire.


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InläggPostat: ons 09-10-28 22:40 
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I can assure you that it is almost invisible to see ethanol burn (the blue flames) in bright daylight.

/Aryan

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InläggPostat: ons 09-10-28 23:17 
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Blev medlem: tis 06-12-19 15:54
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Obormot skrev:
very easy, just heat up ethanol with concentrate sulfur acid (h2so4) to 140°C.

diethylether have great cold start abilities, "startgas" consisits from 60-80% of diethylether and other is oil, propane and other additives.

but i think it may be illegal to made it "at home" or in small firm - diethylether is medical "****" for anesthesia, and if we want to buy alreade made diethylether, it costs too much.

also we want to try Methyl tert-butyl ether or ethyl tert-butyl ether - it aviable as additive to gasoline and price is not too much.


Here is a diagram of the vapour pressure and lower bound of combustible mixtures for different fuels among them diethylether. What is the corresponding data for Methyl tert-butyl ether or ethyl tert-butyl ether?

Bild

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Senast redigerad av GL fre 10-01-01 19:48, redigerad totalt 1 gång.

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InläggPostat: tor 09-10-29 11:32 
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MTBE:
Boiling point 55.2 °C
Flash point -10 °C
vapour pressure 27,1 kPa (20 °C)

ETBE:
Boiling point 69-71 °C
Flash point -19 °C
vapour pressure 173 kPa (25 °C)

Isopentane - not BIO, but very effective, i think we need only 5-6%, and it is cheap in Russia, but not produced in Ukraine :( It used as additive to winter types of gasoline for better cold starting.

Boiling point 28 °C
Flash point <−51 °C
vapour pressure 761 kPa (20 °C)

about flame - it is visible very good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqY0-j-Kq-E

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InläggPostat: tor 09-10-29 21:53 
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Blev medlem: tis 06-12-19 15:54
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I think you mixed up hPa and kPa. I put the correct values in red.
Obormot skrev:
MTBE:
Boiling point 55.2 °C
Flash point -10 °C
vapour pressure 27,1 kPa (20 °C)

ETBE:
Boiling point 69-71 °C
Flash point -19 °C
vapour pressure 173 kPa (25 °C) 17,3 kPa

Isopentane - not BIO, but very effective, i think we need only 5-6%, and it is cheap in Russia, but not produced in Ukraine :( It used as additive to winter types of gasoline for better cold starting.

Boiling point 28 °C
Flash point <−51 °C
vapour pressure 761 kPa (20 °C) 76,1 kPa

about flame - it is visible very good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqY0-j-Kq-E

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InläggPostat: tor 09-10-29 22:00 
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:( yes, you are right.

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 Inläggsrubrik: Drawback of diethylether
InläggPostat: tor 09-10-29 22:00 
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Diethylether can form explosive peroxide see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethyl_ether_peroxide
If this happens in a mixture with ethanol I don´t know.

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InläggPostat: tor 09-10-29 22:50 
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yes, it formed under dayligh :(

that why it stored in cool dark place.

i don't know too, is it forms in mixtures with ethanol and is it dangerous in concentrations 5-7% Diethylether in ethanol.

in russian books about ethanol fuel (old books, there is one from 1930-s) there is a recomendation to add 4–6% Isopentane or 6–8% Dimetylether. it will provide cold start ability up to -20...-25C.

Dimethyl ether, soluble in acetone, chloroform, ethanol, ether

Boiling point −23.6 °C (!)
Flash point −41 °C

there is a table of vapour pressure:

T,K Pexp, kPa T, K Pexp, kPa T, K Pexp, kPa
233.128 54.61 298.172 596.21 348.147 2022.45
238.126 68.49 303.160 687.37 353.146 2242.74
243.157 85.57 305.160 726.26 353.158 2243.07
248.152 105.59 308.158 787.07 358.145 2479.92
253.152 129.42 313.156 897.59 363.148 2735.67
258.160 157.53 316.154 968.55 368.158 3010.81
263.160 190.44 318.158 1018.91 373.154 3305.67
268.161 228.48 323.148 1152.35 378.150 3622.60
273.153 272.17 328.149 1298.23 383.143 3962.25
278.145 321.87 333.157 1457.50 388.155 4331.48
283.160 378.66 333.159 1457.76 393.158 4725.02
288.174 443.57 338.154 1631.01 398.157 5146.82
293.161 515.53 343.147 1818.80 400.378 5355.8

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InläggPostat: fre 09-11-27 14:45 
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Pentane:
Boiling point 36.1 °C
Flash point −49 °C
vapour pressure 56,2 kPa (20 °C)

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InläggPostat: fre 09-11-27 15:34 
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About Diethylether:

peroxides forming in very low quantities and in long peiod, and they are dangerous only when Diethylether after long time start to redistilling - when concentration of peroxides in non-distilled Diethylether greatly increases.

if concentration of Diethylether in ethanol will be 5-7%, all the chemists, which I asked, claim that there is no danger.

Diethylether can be easy made from ethanol by heating it to 130-140 C with sulfur acid (H2SO4) - and this acid will not be spent - it is a catalysator.

i think it is very good for home-made ethanol - they can made Diethylether on same distillation still, but with adjustment for higher temperature.

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InläggPostat: fre 09-11-27 23:57 
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Blev medlem: lör 06-12-23 09:31
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Diethylether can be easy made from ethanol by heating it to 130-140 C with sulfur acid (H2SO4) - and this acid will not be spent - it is a catalysator.

i think it is very good for home-made ethanol - they can made Diethylether on same distillation still, but with adjustment for higher temperature.


Or a car can make its own diethylether onboard!

/Aryan

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InläggPostat: lör 09-11-28 08:15 
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yes, we can hold small quantity of sulfur acid and heater under hood.

before start we inject into acid some ethanol, heat it up to 140C and diethylether will evaporate into intake mainfold.

i think we can made it in 5-10 sec, so cold start will be almost instant in any temperature.

and there is no any "spending matherial" - if you have fuel and power in accumulator, you always can start.

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