Etanol.nu

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InläggPostat: lör 09-11-28 12:25 
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Blev medlem: lör 06-12-23 09:31
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This sounds very interresting, so what you say is if you boil some ethanol @ 130-140 C with sulfuric acid H2SO4 (=car battery acid) you create Dimethyl ether. You would then separate the produced ether gas from the ethanol/acid fluid and use it as starting gas.

Does it need to be so hot? To keep the ethanol fluid at 130-140°C you would need a lot of pressure to keep ethanol fluid. Or do you mean that he ethanol could be a gas when you lead it through the acid? The acid boiling at temperatures above 330°C so that is ok.

On wikipedia I read:
Ethanol is mixed with a strong acid, typically sulfuric acid, H2SO4. The acid dissociates producing hydrogen
Citat:
ions, H+. A hydrogen ion protonates the electronegative oxygen atom of the ethanol, giving the ethanol molecule a positive charge:
CH3CH2OH + H+ → CH3CH2OH2+

A nucleophilic oxygen atom of unprotonated ethanol displaces a water molecule from the protonated (electrophilic) ethanol molecule, producing water, a hydrogen ion and diethyl ether.
CH3CH2OH2+ + CH3CH2OH → H2O + H+ + CH3CH2OCH2CH3

This reaction must be carried out at temperatures lower than 150 °C in order to ensure that an elimination product (ethylene) is not product of the reaction. At higher temperatures, ethanol will dehydrate to form ethylene. The reaction to make diethyl ether is reversible, so eventually an equilibrium between reactants and products is achieved.


No minimum temperature, but ethylene production above 150°C, I guess the latter is no problem, the car should start on ethylene as well.

/Aryan

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InläggPostat: lör 09-11-28 12:52 
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if we will heat mixture of sulfur acid and ethanol higher, than 140-150 C, then ethylene will be produced.

if temperature will be lower, than 140C - will be diethyl ether.

very interesting reaction.

i think temperature about 100-120 C will be enough.

if we just mix sulfur acid and ethanol without heating i think we will not produce any gaseous fuel - but i will ask my friends.

this device can be very small and easy to install and use, without any attention or service from user. quantity of sulfur acid is very small too, so it will not be dangerous in road accidents - accumulator have much more acid inside.

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InläggPostat: lör 09-11-28 17:04 
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The container must be of some plastic material that can cope with high temperature, pressure, sulfuric acid, ethanol and petrol. I suppose the black plastic that fuel rails are made of should work.

But what about the heating element, I don't think that for example a glowplug likes sulfuric acid, and plastic is not a good heat conductor so it would not be efficient to heat through the plastic. Maybe some teflon? protective coating on a metal heating element could work?

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InläggPostat: lör 09-11-28 17:46 
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i was thinking again...

there is no any sense to make diethyl ether directly in a car.

we can just evaporate ethanol without any problems with sulfur acid and temp. control with same effect.

i will start new topic about this way to start cold engine.

but i still think that 5-6% of diethyl ether in ethanol - it is a good solution for cars with "minimal conversion for ethanol fuel" and it suitable for home-distillers.

and i think, that pure 92-96% ethanol burns in cylinders not very good - when we using about 10-15% gasoline or acetone or something like that driveability significal increases.

such effect can be reached when using fuel heating or intake air heating, but many people do not like install additional devices or pipes and tubes under the hood of new car - and i think adding some % of diethyl ether will be good solution for this category of people, and in summer time they can use pure ethanol.

i think we will do 2 types of fuel for 2 types of "ethanol-conversion", prices will be about 0,3 and 0,35 euro for liter.

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InläggPostat: tis 09-12-08 18:58 
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in book "Ethanol can be a gas!" there is a chapter about cold start systems.

they told, that about 6% of diethyl ether will be so good, as 10% of isopentane.

i read, that 4-6 % of isopentane in pure ethanol gives cold start ability up to -20...-25C, so we need just 2-3% of diethyl ether.

Bild

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InläggPostat: tis 09-12-08 20:14 
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Perfect!

We could have 2% in the summer and 4% i the winter and just do away with he petrol all together!

A car that uses 10l E85 (≈ 63kwh) / 100km still causes 5,86 kg CO2/100 km and during the 5 month that we have "winter" E85 ≈ E77,5 the same care would use 9,75l E77,5 (≈ 63kwh) / 100km it increases to 7,59 kg CO2/100 km

With bioethanol based diethylether the fuel consumption would be ca 10,7 l (≈ 63kwh) / 100km which would reduce CO2 emissions to 1,66 kg CO2/100 km

/Aryan

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Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


Senast redigerad av aryan tis 09-12-08 21:40, redigerad totalt 1 gång.

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InläggPostat: tis 09-12-08 20:41 
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in my country i can not buy large quantity of diethyl ether (1 l and more).

i will try to get diethyl ether in medical store in small bottles ant try to use it for cold start.

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 Inläggsrubrik: The book
InläggPostat: tis 09-12-08 21:00 
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Blev medlem: ons 06-12-20 11:04
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That one?
http://www.permaculture.com/

Price: £25.81 www.amazon.co.uk


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InläggPostat: tis 09-12-08 22:44 
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yes, you can read it for free or save pages as JPG:

http://www.alcoholcanbeagas.net/site/bo ... 29/386/444

and another very interesting document:

http://rapidshare.com/files/318181405/1602785.pdf.html

as i can see in this document, very interesting is 2-3% of n-butane and 97-98% of ethanol.

butane is highly available (in my city there is more than 100 auto propane-butane fuel stations) and much cheaper than diethyl ether (0.6 $/liter and 20$/liter).

for testing i can buy it in small touristic camping-gas ballons:

Bild

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InläggPostat: ons 09-12-09 00:13 
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I have a bi-fuel camper that can run on ethanol or LPG (propane/butane) if I want to coldstart I just let a little lpg gas ino the carburettor to start.

Camping gas ofen has too little propane and to much butane which does not evaporate well at low temperatures, but may be that is better in your country. Propane is well until -30°C or so and much better to start on.

/Aryan

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InläggPostat: ons 09-12-09 00:22 
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if you will place liquid butane and gasoline into open can (at -5C), i think butane will evaporate much better.

i can chill butane and ethanol to -5C, mix those liquids then warm up and look.

if butane will not quickly boil ot of ethanol - it is good.

than i put this mix into closed canister and watch, how can it hold temp. about +10...+20 C

than i put this mix into fuel tank and will try to start cold engine without any preheaters.

i need a good reliable and cheap solution of cold start problem up to -20...-25 C with minimal changes in customers cars. if butane will work - it will be just perfect.

we can make "winter blend fuel" with same price and same adapter adjustments.

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InläggPostat: ons 09-12-09 00:47 
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You mean put the butane under pressure into the fuelrail as a coldstart aditive? Yes that should work, but you might need an extra pump, as the butane bottle will not have any pressure below its boiling point, -0.5°C

/Aryan

PS a very nice book you found, I like these http://www.alcoholcanbeagas.net/site/node/446 tips to use soft coppar gaskets between cyl head and intake manifold to increase heat transfer!

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InläggPostat: ons 09-12-09 10:22 
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Blev medlem: sön 08-07-20 23:22
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You need to have something with ISO-butane instead, ISO-butane has much lower boiling point. I have bought this to refill my AC, I can't find specification now but this product contains something like 70% ISO-butane. To be OK for AC I must also fillup with propane so the mixture is 50/50. Haven't done yet, but shall next time I need to refill.

http://shop.jetboil.com/index.php/jetpower-fuel-100g.html

This set is used when camping in low temperature.

http://www.fam-bjork.se/citroen/AC/gds8.html

This side is in swedish, but is good for AC-repair (off-topic), on this side it is a link to Hy Chill that sells the right mixture to replace R12 and R134a.

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/Erik

Volvo V70 -98 140 hk blandtankas ca 50/50
Volvo V70 -98 170 hk blandtankas ca 50/50
VW Polo -95 blandtankas
VW Polo -98 blandtankas
VW Polo -04 blandtankas
Yamaha XJ 900 -85


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InläggPostat: ons 09-12-09 10:45 
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no, idea is premix butane and ethanol and not changing anything in engine.

Like E85, but 3-4 % butane instead 15% of gasoline

i found butane, and chill it in refrigerator - when i press button, butane just leak out like liquid, no pressure inside (only when it is cold).

now i will chill ethanol and mix it with butane. 1 can contains 220 gramm, so i need 1 can for 7 liters of ethanol to obtain 3-4% concentration.

Bild

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InläggPostat: ons 09-12-09 10:55 
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I think that most of these lihtweight disposable bottles have either just butane or if they are meant for lower temperatures they have a mixture of 25% propane, 25% isobutane and 50% butane. Like for example these

Bild

Bild

For pure propane you need a heavier bottle with a safety valve to cope with the pressure when it gets warmer. For example this one with 2 kg propane in a 5 kg bottle

Bild

It is no problem to cold start on propane gas but it is not fossilfree and not mixable with ethanol like the diethyl ether idea.

/Aryan

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Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


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