Etanol.nu

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InläggPostat: ons 09-12-09 11:40 
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InläggPostat: ons 09-12-09 13:50 
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so, i mix up 4% of butane and 96% of ethanol - and i can't see any "layers" or something like it - seems mixture is homogeneous and clear.

now i will wait till my fuel tank will empty and try to fill this mixture and start cold engine.

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InläggPostat: ons 09-12-09 21:34 
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Very interesting thread!
It is from brains as U humanity comes forward, Obormot!!

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Obormot skrev:
so, i mix up 4% of butane and 96% of ethanol - and i can't see any "layers" or something like it - seems mixture is homogeneous and clear.

now i will wait till my fuel tank will empty and try to fill this mixture and start cold engine.


Thats great! What book did you find in the link about butane?

I am also very curiuos what happens with the mixture when it reaches room temperature, doesn't the butane evaporate too quickly, boil away?

On http://www.baff.info/rapporter/Säkerhetsaspekter%20med%20etanol%20som%20drivmedel%20-%20sv.pdf you can see the vapour pressure of the winter quality (vinter) with more petrol (ca 23,5%) as a benchmark for a winter quality ethanol.

I checked chemical resistance of some polymeres agains diethyl ether and butane compaired to petrol and there is only a slightly less tolerance of NBR that might be ised in O-rings to ether compaired to petrol
See http://www.hydroscand.se/MediaBinaryLoa ... nload=true

There is also a patent that is about ether and ethanol that might be interesting to find more about:
https://data.epo.org/publication-server ... &iFormat=0

https://data.epo.org/publication-server ... &iFormat=0

/Aryan

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InläggPostat: ons 09-12-09 23:10 
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i warm up closed 5l bottle to room temperature - there is no pressure inside bottle. bottle is "soft", i can easily depress the walls.

i think if quantity of butane was 30-40%, it will evaporate very quick, but 3-4% will evaporate very slow.

book about ethanol-butane and other mixtures:

http://rapidshare.com/files/318181405/1602785.pdf.html

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InläggPostat: ons 09-12-09 23:33 
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aryan skrev:
[-----
On http://www.baff.info/rapporter/Säkerhetsaspekter%20med%20etanol%20som%20drivmedel%20-%20sv.pdf you can see the vapour pressure of the winter quality (vinter) with more petrol (ca 23,5%) as a benchmark for a winter quality ethanol.

-----
/Aryan

Even for winter gasoline butane is used to increase the vapour pressure.
From the report above:

Citat:
På vintern höjs ångtrycket ytterligare (för att förbättra kallstartegenskapen) upp till maximalt tillåtna 95 kPa. I praktiken tillsätts butan för att höja ångtrycket i bensin; ju högre ångtryck – desto mer bränsleångor vid en given temperatur.

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InläggPostat: tor 09-12-10 10:48 
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Ok thanks to you both, I find that this sounds very promissing!

I found that dimethylether is less compatible than NBR rubber (which I think is used in O-rings, fuelhoses). For pure dimethylether NBR is "less suitable" @25°C and @70°C it is not suitable, where for gasoline it is less suitable at 70°C and suitable @25°C-

Ethanol is 100% compatible with NBR at both temperatures (and so is butane) so I doubt that E85 with 15% dimethylether would be "worse" an 100% petrol.

Although I'd prefer dimethylether because it easily can be made from ethanol and would make the fuel 100% renewable, 4-5% butane is still a great deal better than 25% petrol that we get wintertime to create the same vapour pressure!

In fact I do not understand why not just add some percent butane to summer ethanol to boost the vapour pressure to make it winter ethanol instead of putting more gasoline (which also relies on butane to boost the vapour pressure) into the E85.

In Sweden butane would also be interesting from tax vieuwpoint. Ethanol is free of taxes (exept VAT) but the petrol mixed with the E85 has
SEK 5,52/l taxes
Gasol (butane and propane) used as car fuel has only SEK 1,652 /kg taxes
with a desity of 600g/l @0°C that makes ca 0,99 SEK/l

/Aryan

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InläggPostat: tor 09-12-10 23:15 
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so, i did some tests, -2C and totally cold engine (5 hours outside)

5% of butane not allow to start engine - but there is a infrequent "fires" it cylinders, but in not starts.

10% of butane start engine very good - i cranking about 1-2 sec. than it starts.

price for butane in Ukraine is about 0.5$ / liter, it good mixes with gasoline and ethanol, so i think it is better solution.

reminder: i using not E85, but pure 92-94% ethanol.

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InläggPostat: fre 09-12-11 12:51 
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Thanks for the update! I am a bit disappointed that 5% was not enough at -2°C but on the other hand you have ethanol with 6-8% water and that is already more difficult than anhydrous ethanol.

Maybe more fuel (more cold start fuel enrichement) could have helped as well in stead of using 10% butane?

/Aryan

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InläggPostat: fre 09-12-11 13:03 
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our adapter doubles quantity of fuel when "cold start assist" function activated.

but i think, that i can start engine if just add some more fuel...

we decide to try mix of 85% ethanol and 15% of butane in our club - for temperatures up to -20C.

now we doing some laboratory tests for safety and for determining minimum temperature of cold start.

and with butane in fuel, heating of fuel is not good idea - so we recomend to heat intake air. it is very simple and cheap, just put intake pipe close to output collector. this flexible metal pipe costs about $3-4.

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InläggPostat: lör 09-12-19 20:23 
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Blev medlem: ons 07-10-10 17:33
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I really like this discussion!

From very beginning I was wondering is there any chemical(s) available which greatly improves ethanol cold start performance at much lower dosage levels than gasoline. I really like diethyl ether. It comes from renewable source if made from ethanol unlike butane and it is possible to make at relatively small scale (farm scale?) production.
I will experiment with hydrous ethanol and diethyl ether mix in proportion 3-10%. By the way Obormot the book about ethanol mixes is very informative and useful. Thank you again!

I have not seen here discussion about electronic/software cold start aid called compression cycle. As I understand during the cold start engine cranking fuel delivery is stopped for very short time (20-50 ms) and compression takes place like in diesel engine. As result combustion chamber heats up enough for better cold start.
In the end of last year I got electronic conversion kit samples from South African company Perfect Power. This company is well known piggy pack producer for car tuners. According to information I got from them they achieved 100% reliable cold start down to -20 C with E85 summer blend inside refrigerator container. Unfortunately they sold all ethanol program rights to another company in Europa in the beginning of this year. Information about this company you can find here - http://www.t-ec2.eu/. Look at the cold start demonstration video at first page. -30 C and E85 summer blend in tank according information I got from them. Also another USA origin kit called White Lightning (Dan Lorenzo) has this feature since spring of this year. Look at their video here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y07K7RWbY-Q. What do you thing about this compression cycle during engine cranking at cold start?


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InläggPostat: sön 09-12-20 11:25 
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for E85 cold start problem ALWAYS can be solved just by increasing of volume of injected fuel. +100%, +200% - no problems.

this morning we have -15C and engine starts in 2 sec. with +150% "cold start assistance" and mix about 85% hydrous ethanol and 15 % gasoline from gas station.

becouse of 15% gasoline, that is in E85.

i mean european weather conditions :)

maybe can be used pre-injectin - inject some fuel into mainfold and wait give some time for this fuel to evaporate.

PS can we get user and installation manual for their device?

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InläggPostat: sön 09-12-20 12:37 
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Here it is - http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GP1CGHVV


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InläggPostat: sön 09-12-20 13:33 
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o, i already has this manual :)

i read many manuals and other literature before developing my own device.

what is the prices?

and can you tell about your experiments with dietyl ether?

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Senast redigerad av Obormot sön 09-12-20 13:53, redigerad totalt 1 gång.

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InläggPostat: sön 09-12-20 13:51 
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I never got prices from them. They sold whole product group before we got to details. It is not possible buy today those conversion kit's anymore.


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