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InläggPostat: mån 07-08-13 12:55 
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Once and for all, is a "nachrüstung" of a piggybacksystem or a non-original BTR a violation of the german §21 STVZO (or what law that really controlls this... I tried to figure that out here but with little success, can any german help, please..?:
http://www.verkehrsportal.de/board/inde ... howforum=9

The search function seems not workng very well?
If I search for "1400/2002/EG ersatzteile" many hits comes up, but nowhere I can see "1400/2002/EG"?

As I see it , if the modification of a vehicle is non-conforming with German law, that would be a violation of the "1400/2002/EG (Block Exemption Regulation)". http://www.gva.de/upload/BER_Brochure_f ... ch_249.pdf
, since an exhange of a BTR would go under the following exception:

"Die neue GVO definiert auch “qualitätsgleiche Ersatzteile”. Die Definition fordert, dass diese
Teile der Qualität der Komponenten entsprechen müssen, die in Neufahrzeugen verwendet
werden oder wurden; es muss also hinsichtlich seiner Konstruktion, Herstellung und Funktion
zumindest dem “Originalteil“ entsprechen (oder eine höhere Qualität haben).
"

But when I read this thread, about a simple K&N filter;
http://www.verkehrsportal.de/board/inde ... rsatzteile
The thread is near the bottom called:
TüV-Abnahme laut §21
(Why is it impossible to link directly to the thread, Invison power board...)

....I get totally confused, can the guy not even switch his airfilter without extensive emissions testing for several hundreds Euro?
Or can he, like the rest of the world, without risk for expensive fines if stopped by the police?
Maybe my german skills are not up to date, but...

If he can't, I would expect a totally dead tuning-market i todays Germany.
Can any german please explain how these things works in Germany?
I can see a lot of german webpages selling this stuff...

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InläggPostat: tis 07-08-28 19:14 
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I think, I have to try to write in english here. You can see that the german Fuelcatmanager (www.fuelcat.de), a piggyback system, is not approved by the german authorities. That is mentioned on their homepage. I am not sure, but I think a tuned engine has to pass a full exhaust emission test in order to get an OK from TÜV. That may also be the reason to why TÜV approved tuning chips are that expensive. You can contact a well known tuner and ask them, there are quite a few!

I have just sent an E-Mail to one of my german friends from a car forum. He use to be very well informed.

Clicked on the last link of your posting. There are pricelists from TÛV and DEKRA, showing the cost for an exhaust emission test etc.


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InläggPostat: ons 07-08-29 08:53 
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OK, fine, but what about replacing by a non-OEM FPR (fuel pressure regulator) for instance?
According to the block excemption regulation it is allowed in all Europe (as long as it is of better or equal quality as the OEM-part), without any extra cost to the car owner.

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InläggPostat: tor 07-08-30 19:44 
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I received a mail from my forum friend Gregor. He even provided some information on our subject - ethanol. It was all in german. Just let me know it you are interested.


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InläggPostat: tor 07-08-30 20:10 
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hej Karl,

we have discussed these regulations here some time ago, when i asked for
http://etanol.nu//forumrecover/viewtopic.php?t=1114 converting my Volvo with a B230FB ECU do you remember?

okay, i try to explain again:

Citat:
Once and for all, is a "nachrüstung" of a piggybacksystem or a non-original BTR a violation of the german §21 STVZO (or what law that really controlls this...

it could be a violation to §§ 17-20. in these § you can find the regulations how a car manufactor can get a allowance or a car like a VW passat or so. that car must be build in accordance to some european and german regulations.

if then you build in a part that has not an allowance according to these regulations (like these piggyback systems), you have no longer an allowance to drive that car in public traffic.
this applies to any part!!

as far as i know the 1400/2002/EG does not touch these regulations, because the parts sold under this EG regulation are build in accordance to the EG and german laws.

as i wrote in the thread linked above any part you want to install into your car has to fit to these regulations, otherwise you drive an "illegal" car.

anyway there are some people who have installed a piggyback system hoping the german control check instance (TÜV, Dekra) will not recognize it.

a friend of mine has build in a Volvo eprom of another engine in his volvo, went to the TÜ, discussing a little bit about technical realization, and then he got his label :D

i did the same as he did and changed the 962 eprom (for turbo-charged engine) to a 935 eprom of a regular engine, quasi changing original volvo parts by another :D

8)

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Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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InläggPostat: fre 07-08-31 10:00 
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Citat:
a friend of mine has build in a Volvo eprom of another engine in his volvo, went to the TÜ, discussing a little bit about technical realization, and then he got his label

i did the same as he did and changed the 962 eprom (for turbo-charged engine) to a 935 eprom of a regular engine, quasi changing original volvo parts by another


Great, so you also have the label? I understand that these guys are not impossle then.
In Sweden I see a switch of ECU/EPROM to a one from another motorfamily pretty much impossible if you'd tried to get a official approval by SBP (Svensk Bilprovning). But nobody tries that here..



Citat:
if then you build in a part that has not an allowance according to these regulations (like these piggyback systems), you have no longer an allowance to drive that car in public traffic.
this applies to any part!!

as far as i know the 1400/2002/EG does not touch these regulations, because the parts sold under this EG regulation are build in accordance to the EG and german laws.


Well, EU-law takes over local law...
And "a part that has no allowance" is not relevant according the 1400/2002/EG. It is enough with a statement from the manufacturer/seller that the part is of eqaul or higher quality and will work in the car as the OEM-part do.
The piggyback is an addition, so legally maybe somebody could argue that it is an extra part, not applicable in 1400/2002/EG , but the BTR is a replacement, so it isapplicable!
As well as a non-OEM airfilter or wathever.
Is it allowed to sell and mount oil- or airfilters in Germany without a label from Dekra/TüV?
If not, this is clearly a violation of 1400/2002/EG !

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InläggPostat: fre 07-08-31 16:02 
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karlmb skrev:
Great, so you also have the label? I understand that these guys are not impossle then.
In Sweden I see a switch of ECU/EPROM to a one from another motorfamily pretty much impossible if you'd tried to get a official approval by SBP (Svensk Bilprovning). But nobody tries that here..

i got the label in March before switching the Eprom :) but at that time my car runs under E50, the emission test was better than ever before :D and i guess no one can recognize that the ECU was switched to another one, even if both were Volvo ECUs :)

Volvo-Berti skrev:
if then you build in a part that has not an allowance according to these regulations (like these piggyback systems), you have no longer an allowance to drive that car in public traffic.
this applies to any part!!

as far as i know the 1400/2002/EG does not touch these regulations, because the parts sold under this EG regulation are build in accordance to the EG and german laws.


karlmb skrev:
And "a part that has no allowance" is not relevant according the 1400/2002/EG. It is enough with a statement from the manufacturer/seller that the part is of eqaul or higher quality and will work in the car as the OEM-part do.
The piggyback is an addition, so legally maybe somebody could argue that it is an extra part, not applicable in 1400/2002/EG , but the BTR is a replacement, so it isapplicable!
As well as a non-OEM airfilter or wathever.
Is it allowed to sell and mount oil- or airfilters in Germany without a label from Dekra/TüV?
If not, this is clearly a violation of 1400/2002/EG !

no, there is no way to argue in that way.
you have to differentiate between parts in compliance to this 1400/2002 EU regulation and parts which have no official allowance at all!!
at this time these piggyback systems do not have any administration label or any official admittance to be used.
to sell them is not illegal, but to use them is a grey area. some manufactors are still working to get an official admittance, and they inform their customers that using this system could violent the law. others only wanna sell without any information :evil:

to your last Q: not the parts get the TÜV labels, the car gets it...or has to get it ;)
and if you go one of these companies to let check your car, any part which could change the safety of the car or the safety of others by using this car in public traffic, is not allowed to be used!
that concerns to parts like breaks, lights, tires, exhaust pipes (loudness), any engine tuning parts, stiring wheels and so on.
its very difficult to understand.
e.g. in Germany the number plates must have a minimum difference to the ground :roll: otherwise the police can let you pay for this, if they stop you.....

you see, these german regulations have nothing to do with the EU regulations.

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Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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InläggPostat: fre 07-08-31 16:23 
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Berti, I can agree with you that a piggyback system would not go under block excemption rule, since it is not a case of replacing a spare part.

But I'm talking about spare parts.
A BTR is a spare part.
A an airfilter too.

What is the difference in an non-OEM airfilter (not sportfilter, original style filter to simplify the discussion), and a non-OEM BTR?
A BTR is not a tuning part (normally..), all injection cars have one.
So it is a replacement/spare part.

Citat:
these german regulations have nothing to do with the EU regulations.


I'm sorry, but there is no such thing, that a local law can ignore EU-law!

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InläggPostat: fre 07-08-31 16:41 
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BTR = Bränsle Trycks Regulator eg Fuel Pressure Regulator. FPR ?

@Karl-MB
It might be like tires, you are allowed to change the brand but not alter the size..

In that case you are allowed to change the "FPR" with another brand, but not alter the fuelpressure.

Just a thought

/Aryan


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InläggPostat: fre 07-08-31 17:23 
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Sorry for my swedish BTR..

Yes, it's like tires, or any other OEM-like part (tires are a bit standardized though and have their own rules I think)

About the fuel pressure, they go under another regulation, just as adjusting you ignition timing.
I think that is allowed in Germany too, without a visit to Dekra/TüV?

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InläggPostat: tis 07-09-25 09:36 
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i think Aryan is right, there is no allowance to change the fuel pressure, because this is a kind of manipulation of the fuel injection system.

the reason behind is that the result could be more engine power.

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best wishes from here :)
Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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InläggPostat: tis 07-09-25 09:49 
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Volvo-Berti skrev:
i think Aryan is right, there is no allowance to change the fuel pressure, because this is a kind of manipulation of the fuel injection system.

the reason behind is that the result could be more engine power.


Sure, but replacing the FPR is allowed, OK?

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InläggPostat: tor 07-09-27 07:17 
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karlmb skrev:
Volvo-Berti skrev:
i think Aryan is right, there is no allowance to change the fuel pressure, because this is a kind of manipulation of the fuel injection system.

the reason behind is that the result could be more engine power.


Sure, but replacing the FPR is allowed, OK?

oops, where is my posting?? damned browser....

as Aryan wrote
aryan skrev:
@Karl-MB
It might be like tires, you are allowed to change the brand but not alter the size..
In that case you are allowed to change the "FPR" with another brand, but not alter the fuelpressure.
you can switch to another manufactor, but not to a FPR with another pressure, because this could be increase the power of the engine, in worst case damage some parts of the injection system

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best wishes from here :)
Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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InläggPostat: sön 07-09-30 11:40 
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you can not switch to another manufacturer! The only part which is usable, is the original part. All other parts are not allowed unless they have a approval from the car manufacturer or a E-check character and a expertise for your car (and i have never seen a FPR with a expertise).

The main reason for this is, that any changings on the fuel system results in a changing of the emmisions (i know and you know that 3bar are 3bar, but this doesn't matter in germany). And if you do such things in Germany, you will go into a fight with our TUEV (and in most cases you will lose). It doesn't matter if your car has better emmisions as before, you have not the right to change anything without the ok from our TUEV (and the are not flexible, they are in most cases law-abiding, if it makes sense or not).

The consensus is: all things and parts which will affect in any way the emmisions are in germany vorbidden (exempt you have the expertise for this part).

This rule is valid for: FPR's, ignition systems, cams, exhausts, any parts from the fuel and exhaust system, other tire-sizes, and so on....

It is time, that the german car-laws will get detached by EU-laws, it's a really pain to build custom cars in germany.


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InläggPostat: sön 07-09-30 22:09 
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Stoni,

If you are right, TüV are really breaking the EU-law!
How come that no sparepart manufacturer (or FIGIEFA) have challenged this behaviour in the EU-court?
Here in Sweden the independent spare part sellers are making a lot of advertising on their homepages about this "new" EU-exemption, giving new possibilities to use cheaper parts than OEM for our cars.
Amazing that such strict rules can co-exist inside one of the founders of EU..?
Citat:
All other parts are not allowed unless they have a approval from the car manufacturer or a E-check character and a expertise for your car (and i have never seen a FPR with a expertise).

Can this rule be seen written somewhere or is it just the way it goes in practice?

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