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aryan skrev:
http://www.korridor.se/aryan/acadiane/E85/bx14/mono-jetronic/Bosch_SM1589-18.pdf

http://www.korridor.se/aryan/acadiane/E ... ding0.html


Hello Aryan,
what are you talking about? Unfortunality bablefish doesn't translate Swedish to English or German.

Are you 'just' talking about KDY (BOSCH A2.2) diagnose socket?
JFYI: I tried my and got just the 'all is ok' message, even if I swiched off some sensors during running engine.


What are you telling us with your ECU photo gallery? have you made any mods?


Are you the guy who made an entry at http://www.etanolbil.eu/bilar.xls for BX14? This sheet says 'multipoint'. I'm highly interested to modify the KDY manifold for MPI but I'm afraid ist doesn't make sence because the cylinder head is shaped badly (bended loooong intake runners).

If I'd be rich I'd like to plug in a modern MPI TU engine. BTW does it fit to the MA gear box (BX14)?
I've got an AX Diesel gear box into my converted BX14 Break (recently BX16 Break {--> BX14+ steering assitance!!!} ) it runs something about more than 145km/h (trip master) at 5th gear (22% longer than OEM top gear, 4th gear is about the original 5th gear, which should boost the BX Break up to 158km/h - never tested :) ).


Could you tell me your E85 mods and expereinces with your BX14? Maybe it's useful to open a new thread quoting my question(s).

Thank you very much!

»Horst

_________________
» Citroën BX14 E.CO.2 Break: TU3M/KDY (iron cast) C/R=10.3:1, AX-Diesel gear box (+22%)
» Citroën Ami8i Break: V06/630 + MS EFI + cat


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Hello Horst,

Nice to have someone from Austria on the forum, welcome! And with an A-type Citroen on top off that as well :-)

I run my acadiane with the same engine as your ami-i on E85 too, btw where you in Sweden/Borlänge on the worldmeeting with your ami this year?

Maybe you could help us check/update the ethanol filling points in Austria: http://darwin.korridor.se/aryan/acadian ... rch=suchen

ami8i skrev:
Hello Aryan,
what are you talking about? Unfortunality bablefish doesn't translate Swedish to English or German.


I had some trouble with the ECU that would give me any error codes, all no blinking of the box at all! It turned out to be a broken box! Translation with http://www.systran.co.uk/ might help a little.

ami8i skrev:
Are you 'just' talking about KDY (BOSCH A2.2) diagnose socket?
JFYI: I tried my and got just the 'all is ok' message, even if I swiched off some sensors during running engine.


Yes. What sensors can you switch off/unplug without getting error codes?

ami8i skrev:
What are you telling us with your ECU photo gallery? have you made any mods?


I just showed the differences between different models. No I haven't made mods, but use a piggyback system simmular too flexitune but with a lambda connection to make the car fully automatic flexifuel. Btw the BX14 monopoint is working quite well on E85 without any conversion once the engine gets warm, but cold start is getting awkward without conversion.

Doubling the fuel pressure was also a quick and easy solution too for this type of car but the original low pressure 1 bar fuelpump (in the tank) was not very powerful -at least in my case- and I replaced it with a new -made in China- Bosch imitation that can easily make 4 bar.

ami8i skrev:
Are you the guy who made an entry at http://www.etanolbil.eu/bilar.xls for BX14? This sheet says 'multipoint'. I'm highly interested to modify the KDY manifold for MPI but I'm afraid ist doesn't make sence because the cylinder head is shaped badly (bended loooong intake runners).


No I'm not that guy, I think that entry is wrong, there are no multipoint BX14 AFAIK. I have a stock monopoint but with raised compression, 12,5:1 as opposed to 9:1 original and advanced the ignition about 8 degrees extra. It runs very fuel efficient, uses 8 l/ 100km when I drive "normally" which is almost the same as originally on petrol. On top of that power has increased significantly, and with larger diameter tires (to lower the revs) it runs at least 180 on GPS on the autobahn (it could go faster but I didn't try that. According to the specs the top speed is ca 170 on petrol. Driving it fast on the autobahn around 160 top speed whenever possible I still get 100km out of a liter E85!

ami8i skrev:
If I'd be rich I'd like to plug in a modern MPI TU engine. BTW does it fit to the MA gear box (BX14)?


Yes the gearbox does fit, but the other way around does not work, the newer Peugeot 206 gearboxes will not fit directly on the older TU engines, don't remember exactly why but maybe the problem is trivial and easy to overcome by exchanging the input shaft or something like that.

ami8i skrev:
I've got an AX Diesel gear box into my converted BX14 Break (recently BX16 Break {--> BX14+ steering assitance!!!} ) it runs something about more than 145km/h (trip master) at 5th gear (22% longer than OEM top gear, 4th gear is about the original 5th gear, which should boost the BX Break up to 158km/h - never tested :) ).


That sounds like a very nice combination!! A BX14 break was never sold in Sweden, but maybe not in Austria either as you converted a BX 16 break? Now you only need to raise the compression and you will get more torque on lower revs as well as better milage and top speed :-)
The gearbox swap you did is very intresting, I've been thinking of AX diesel/GTI gearboxes as well or changing top gear ratio's untill I decided to opt for an easier solution with a set of larger Xantia wheels, but your AX diesel gearbox sounds perfect, unfortunately these are quite rare here. How does the speedometer work with that gearbox, the AX should have much smaller wheels?

ami8i skrev:
Could you tell me your E85 mods and expereinces with your BX14? Maybe it's useful to open a new thread quoting my question(s).

Thank you very much!

»Horst


Well I just did! The easiest conversion available for the BX 14 I think is the flexitune box (www.flexitune.se) the auto FFV thing I have is a 123ignition prototype which is still under development.

I'm very keen to here more about you Ami 8 conversion results too, I have an VISA engine in my acadiane as well and use a 123ignition (the 123-2cv-evo) with much more advance as stock and better vacuum correction. And an adjustable jet to make it flexifuel. It has an O2 sensor as well with led display but I can easily feel what is the correct setting. I do not have an Cat in the Acadiane but am dreaming of a set of small metallic cats to put into the heat exchangers to boost there performance at te same time :-)

Oh yes I changed the BX cat to an more open type metallic catalyzer as well but I'm not sure if that improved the cars performance, but the new cat lights up much faster.

Greetings and looking forward to hear more about your cars,

/Aryan

PS if you feel it's getting to off topic for this forum, feel free to mail or "pm" me directly

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Hello Aryan,
thanks for warm welcome! :) And thank you very much for your interesting & detailed reply!


Ethanol related:

@Austria fuel stations:
thanks for maintaining this list (I've never seen/found before). All I found was this company, they should be opened in the next months: http://www.superethanol.at/frontend/vie ... E=&TEMPID=


@Your piggy back E85 adapter:
http://www.flexitune.se/ seems to be reasonable for ~50€. I came along this adapter to this forum and thougt this is juste the company support forum. I guess it's independent, isn't it?
How does flexitune consider E85? I guess they just increase injection time at a given value of about 20-30% so that the OEM ECU can manage as nothing would be changed. At least I'd try that. :)

Can you give me some details about your 123 prototype converter? Price?


@Fuel pressure:
I thought also about just to rise fuel pressure.
» Maybe I'd could control flow characteriscs of a common MPI fuel pump (2,5-3,5bar typically) by providing a PWM signal to consider various Ethanol rates (E85...E50...E00) in the tank.
» Since I use a BX16 tank I still use the OEM 1bar (SPI) inline pump. I thouhgt also to add another one in series, but I have no idea what happens if this second one is switched off --> is the OEM pump strong enough to pass the 'dead' pump?

How do you consider various Ethanol rates? Your pump will 'overflow' the injector if you have just ordinary fuel in tank.


@KDY engine modification:
Yes SPI KDY was the latest BX engine, even the wasted spark SPI KDX (AX) was never introduced in BX.
As my signature says I raised up compression ratio to 10.3:1 by removing 1.0mm (cylinder head gasket leaked). How much did you remove to get this amazing compression rate of 12.5:1? Did you grind the pistons not to touch the valves? An Austrian AX tuning guy would be very interested about your mods! Maybe you could post/send some pics (<250kB> GB, D
Thank you for the Systran Swedish include link!


@KDY ECU diagnosis socket:
I removed cooling temperature sensor, idle stepper motor, TPS.


@Long MA gear box:
If I'd change, I'd like to change to a newer TU engine, the AX gear box is rather nice to drive. :) Thank you for the warning that newer gearboxes/TU engines are not plug&play-able.
I got my AX Diesel box by this guy 'Luc' who has another one to sale (very chaep!) http://51079.homepagemodules.de/t13f7-a ... enken.html
Maybe it's worth to pass by http://www.hermespaketshop.at/ which is much cheaper than common delivery services.
The speedometer is wrong so I built in a bike tripmaster Sigma MC8 (~18€) with 2 magnets on the left drive shaft --> I see speed up to 150km/h.
I bought a VSS pick up of Pug 106 to feed a DIY bord computer one day, because I WANT to know current fuel consumption to select the optimal gear!


@BX14Break:
Was just sold in Italy and Greece, also they could buy a BX11 (Sedan only). In Austria the BX14 Break was just registered by Citroen Austria in 1990 but never offered by dealers. The registration statistics told me that 4 BX14 Breaks were on the road 2 years ago, last year 2.
I got the papers from citroen Austria so I'll legalize the conversion soon (minor things are to do to pass the 'strong view' of the MOT officer).
My car was a BX16 break TGI (model1992), I changed to TU (KDY iron cast) eqiupment but saved the steering assitance http://www.bxig.net/profilepic.php?u=728&full
Nice gimmicks like 4 electric window opener , IR remote control central locking, 3(!) head rests rear, 2 long(!) head rests front, 5 floor interior lights...


@2CV world meeting:
No I wasn't there. Just 1996(?) with Dyane Caban in SLO and 2001 in A (but as helping hand --> Ami parked in seperated area).
My dream was to modify transmission ratio of GSA 5 speed box for the weak Visa engine and fit into the 2 cylinder frame to pass the long distance to S with low noise and low fuel consumption.


@My current NEW gear box in Ami8:
But I managed just to fit step1: a LN gear box with bigger GSA disc brakes. I use/organize this adapter plates http://megasquirt-de.serviceline.ch/suc ... er0001.htm
I have also a set of Olcit/Axel brakes on the shelf...


@Ami8 conversion:
The link of my documentantion is in my profile. I use EDIS ignition module and MegaSquirt as Controller for EFI and ignition. Sorry for German 'lyrics' but there are many pics so you'll get a feeling what I have done.
Next projects are to rise compression rate and twin spark: Either by using 9.5 pistons (V06/644) or doing it on the millinmg machine.
One cylinder head is nearly finished need just time to swap.
My 2nd hand metal cats are made by Hubert Meyer http://entenmeyer.de in Germany (designed for 2CV in heat exchangers --> improved heating power!)


»Horst

_________________
» Citroën BX14 E.CO.2 Break: TU3M/KDY (iron cast) C/R=10.3:1, AX-Diesel gear box (+22%)
» Citroën Ami8i Break: V06/630 + MS EFI + cat


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ami8i skrev:
Hello Aryan,
thanks for warm welcome! :) And thank you very much for your interesting & detailed reply!


Hello Horst!

Thank you for yours ;-)

ami8i skrev:
Ethanol related:

@Austria fuel stations:
thanks for maintaining this list (I've never seen/found before). All I found was this company, they should be opened in the next months: http://www.superethanol.at/frontend/vie ... E=&TEMPID=


Aha we will have to ad these, to the database, do you know anything about pricing? This summer we made a trip to northern-Italy (before the 2cv Worldmeeting) with the BX and GPS with the tankstations we did it solely on E85 with some planning and 2x 20l extra jerrycans we didn't have to tank any petrol, not even in Italy because we made at trip to France to fill her upp again :-) We passed triugh a corner of Austria too but went mostly through Schweiz because we could tank there.

ami8i skrev:
@Your piggy back E85 adapter:
http://www.flexitune.se/ seems to be reasonable for ~50€. I came along this adapter to this forum and thougt this is juste the company support forum. I guess it's independent, isn't it?


Yes, the flexitune is indipendent, they sell a very nice DIY kit, if you managed to make the megasquirt this is a piece of cake!

ami8i skrev:
How does flexitune consider E85? I guess they just increase injection time at a given value of about 20-30% so that the OEM ECU can manage as nothing would be changed. At least I'd try that. :)


There is a potentiometer where you can multiply injector timing from 100 to 200%, it has a 3 settings wire connection: ground (=petrol) , +12V (ca E50), open circuit (E85), the "half" E50 setting is for something inbetween petrol and E85. It also has the possibility for extra fuel during cold starting on E85. BTW you would need 40% longer timing to get a propper amount of E85, but fuel consumption will increase with ca 30% because the engine will run a little bit more efficient.

ami8i skrev:
Can you give me some details about your 123 prototype converter? Price?


It calculates wheter there is E85 or anything else in the tank by using the lambda signal and changes the fuelinjection timing and coldstart enrichement accordingly and indicates on a display how much ethanol it thinks there is in the tank. It can work with low or high impedance injectors and calulate with the opening time of the injector. I still needs a temp sensor to make the cold starting temperature dependent and add a multiport version for sequential inj systems. Pricing is not ready yet .

ami8i skrev:
@Fuel pressure:
I thought also about just to rise fuel pressure.
» Maybe I'd could control flow characteriscs of a common MPI fuel pump (2,5-3,5bar typically) by providing a PWM signal to consider various Ethanol rates (E85...E50...E00) in the tank.
» Since I use a BX16 tank I still use the OEM 1bar (SPI) inline pump. I thouhgt also to add another one in series, but I have no idea what happens if this second one is switched off --> is the OEM pump strong enough to pass the 'dead' pump?

How do you consider various Ethanol rates? Your pump will 'overflow' the injector if you have just ordinary fuel in tank.


With PWM and no pressure sensor you will not be able to get an constant pressure. If you have a fast pressure sensor a electronic pressure control system would be very nice but not ucomplicated to make.

Much easier is to just add an extra (adjustable) fuel pressure regulator in the return line raising the FP to 200% is neccesarry to get 40% more fuel. Malpassi is for example a good choice. With a bypass valve you can switch between original pressure and raised pressure..

ami8i skrev:
@KDY engine modification:
Yes SPI KDY was the latest BX engine, even the wasted spark SPI KDX (AX) was never introduced in BX.


I see!

ami8i skrev:
As my signature says I raised up compression ratio to 10.3:1 by removing 1.0mm (cylinder head gasket leaked). How much did you remove to get this amazing compression rate of 12.5:1? Did you grind the pistons not to touch the valves? An Austrian AX tuning guy would be very interested about your mods! Maybe you could post/send some pics (<250kB> GB, D
Thank you for the Systran Swedish include link!


I, don't remember exactly how much it was, I think al little over 2 mm, I simply took as much as possible as you can see I should have taken out the valves before ;-) The stock belt is now almost too long and of cause the valve timing became a little later but not too much.

Bild


ami8i skrev:
@KDY ECU diagnosis socket:
I removed cooling temperature sensor, idle stepper motor, TPS.


Strange, that should give you error codes 14, 21 and 33 !

ami8i skrev:
@Long MA gear box:
If I'd change, I'd like to change to a newer TU engine, the AX gear box is rather nice to drive. :) Thank you for the warning that newer gearboxes/TU engines are not plug&play-able.


Search on a Peugeot 206 forum if you want to know exactly.

ami8i skrev:
I got my AX Diesel box by this guy 'Luc' who has another one to sale (very chaep!) http://51079.homepagemodules.de/t13f7-a ... enken.html
Maybe it's worth to pass by http://www.hermespaketshop.at/ which is much cheaper than common delivery services.


Hmm that sounds really very intresting, Thank you for that tip, I need to replace the clutch anyway, so I could just as well replace the gearbox as well!

ami8i skrev:
The speedometer is wrong so I built in a bike tripmaster Sigma MC8 (~18€) with 2 magnets on the left drive shaft --> I see speed up to 150km/h.
I bought a VSS pick up of Pug 106 to feed a DIY bord computer one day, because I WANT to know current fuel consumption to select the optimal gear!


What is a VSS pickup? With a duty cycle instrument that show the percentage of time where the injector is open you could do compairative fuel consumption if you know the engine speed..

ami8i skrev:
@BX14Break:
Was just sold in Italy and Greece, also they could buy a BX11 (Sedan only). In Austria the BX14 Break was just registered by Citroen Austria in 1990 but never offered by dealers. The registration statistics told me that 4 BX14 Breaks were on the road 2 years ago, last year 2.
I got the papers from citroen Austria so I'll legalize the conversion soon (minor things are to do to pass the 'strong view' of the MOT officer).
My car was a BX16 break TGI (model1992), I changed to TU (KDY iron cast) eqiupment but saved the steering assitance http://www.bxig.net/profilepic.php?u=728&full
Nice gimmicks like 4 electric window opener , IR remote control central locking, 3(!) head rests rear, 2 long(!) head rests front, 5 floor interior lights...


A lot left to read.. I could get a nice BX19 break for free but converting it to BX14 would be quite complicated here with the paperwork, nice that you could get teh papers from Citroen Austria!

Would be even more intresting to make an BX with ethanol optimized lean and mean turbo compressed 1,0 AX/205 engine :-)

ami8i skrev:
@2CV world meeting:
No I wasn't there. Just 1996(?) with Dyane Caban in SLO and 2001 in A (but as helping hand --> Ami parked in seperated area).
My dream was to modify transmission ratio of GSA 5 speed box for the weak Visa engine and fit into the 2 cylinder frame to pass the long distance to S with low noise and low fuel consumption.

@My current NEW gear box in Ami8:
But I managed just to fit step1: a LN gear box with bigger GSA disc brakes. I use/organize this adapter plates http://megasquirt-de.serviceline.ch/suc ... er0001.htm
I have also a set of Olcit/Axel brakes on the shelf...


Hmm a lot to read later, thanks!

The original dyane gearbox is not to bad in a not so earodynamic acadiane... But I have a LNA gearbox laying arount which I'd like to experient a little with. Biggest problem is that the first exhaust under the gearbox will not fit?

ami8i skrev:
@Ami8 conversion:
The link of my documentantion is in my profile. I use EDIS ignition module and MegaSquirt as Controller for EFI and ignition. Sorry for German 'lyrics' but there are many pics so you'll get a feeling what I have done.
Next projects are to rise compression rate and twin spark: Either by using 9.5 pistons (V06/644) or doing it on the millinmg machine.
One cylinder head is nearly finished need just time to swap.
My 2nd hand metal cats are made by Hubert Meyer http://entenmeyer.de in Germany (designed for 2CV in heat exchangers --> improved heating power!)

»Horst


I have a set of new VISA cylinders (and 9:1 pisons) which I will raise compression by taken something off, a friend has already done that. Btw the pistons are very heavvy, I wonder if these couldn't be made lighter. At least I'm planning to carefully make them weight balanced.

What performance improvement/fuel consumption decrease did you get with the megasquirt? 123igntion is working on a bolt on carburettor replacement with monopoin injection.

Kind regards
Aryan

PS reading german is no problem.

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In my experience (however mostly from VAG cars, not Citroën/Peugeot), the Mono-jetronic system is very "E85-friendly" due to the exceptionally wide lambda control range. Usually, up to 70-80 % E85 can be accomodated without any conversion at all, and when a conversion is done by a slight increase of the fuel pressure (most conveniently by disassembling the pressure regulator and fitting a suitable washer or shim on top of the regulator spring), the engine will still run well with full lambda control as well on gasoline - i.e. the car gets full FFV performance!

From other Bosch engine management systems on Citroën/Peugeot (more precisely, Motronic 1.3 on XU9 engines), i have observed that there can be several different software versions in ECUs with the same part number. And in many cases, the differences relate to diagnostics, error codes and so on. One interesting case is that two different software versions found on BX 16V '88 do not perform as outlined in the workshop manual regarding diagnostics, but a third version found on a '89 cars performs as intended.
The difference was that the earlier software did not give any proper error codes when trying to read them out immediately after switching ignition on, the engine had to be idling for the diagnostics to work properly.

So, when discussing strange behaviours of ECUs, please mention the part number of the ECU as well as of the software eprom!

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Hello Aryan,

@Ethanol fuel stations/prices in Austria:
I have no idea, the webiste isn't telling anything about. I guess there will be a start-up nice-price at the beginning. When I fill up the first time I'll ask the owner and report you.

I told the man in the cylinder head grinding shop about my Ethanol plans and he forwarded me to a petrol station near by, it was BioDiesel and the 'lady' in petrol station AND coffee shop had no idea about --> Austria would not be your favourite vacation place (this year). :)


@FlexiTuneII
495Kr ~53€ this days. Is this the DIY kit?


@Injector pulse width - my enrichment theory:
Injection pulse width (PW) is the sum of the injector open and close delay and the injection flow time. In the ACII "graphics" below I put the delays in front of constant flow to simplify the chart. In reality there is also a very small delay after the current is switched off:
Kod:
E00:
__***++++_________***++++_________***++++_________
E85:
__***++++++_______***++++++_______***++++++_______

___.....no current, no flow
***.....injector open/close delay (1ms* typically) - no flow...[ms*]
+++.....constant fuel flow...[ms+]

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm says that stoechiometric AFR of E00 is 14,7 and E85 is 9.7 --> ~+50% of flow.
The open/close delay ranges about the same length (idling) and maybe a sixth (at WOT (wide open throttle = high load)) of the given PW by OEM ECU.


a) E85 enrichment at idle:
effective flow ~1ms -->
enrichment = (1ms* + 1.5ms+ ) / ( 1ms* + 1ms+ ) = 2.5/2.0 = 1,25
--> PW_E85 = 1.25 * PW_E00 25% enrichment

b) 85 enrichment at WOT:
effective flow ~6ms -->
enrichment = (1ms* + 9ms+ ) / ( 1ms* + 6ms+ ) = 10/7 = 1.42
--> PW_E85 = 1.42 * PW_E00 42% enrichment

That means that the added amount of fuel is not a constant factor. At least I expect this based on my theory.

What a pitty that I'm not an EE to extend injector PW with any µC by my self. I don't know how to measure the OEM ECU PW --> How can I feed a µC with the origin injector PW of the OEM ECU which would be the base to extend flow.


@PWM fuel pressure:
thanks absolutely right! I've forgot that (return) flow is not constant all the time. :)


@machined cylinder head:
I checked various compression rates on TU3M engine based on OEM 9.3:1:
10:1....-0.7mm
10.3:1...-1.0mm
12.5:1...-2.6mm!!!
Thank you for the picture.
Except of the troubles with the looong belt you had no problems with touching piston and valve?
Is it possible to add/upload a file? I made a quick and dirty Excel sheet to calc machined height by given/wanted compression ratio.



Hello torbjorn,
thank you for your interesting stuff!

@Bosch Mono-Jetronic range:
Would be fine if I could test E85 easily without (much) modifications.
Maybe I plug in some switchable "coolant temperatur increase resitors" (some kOhms) to get richer mixture for starting and early warm up (open loop) in winter.
Citat:
Usually, up to 70-80 % E85 can be accomodated without any conversion

Do you mean that 70-80% E85 can me mixed to E00 petrol? --> E60-E70? or that the ECU closed loop range is able to enrich mixture up to 70-80% (deviant from burned map) in closed loop?






OT:

@diagnose code:
Thanks, I know the numbers (but not by heart :) ).


@VSS:
Vehicle speed sensor, I guess PSA uses VR (inductive) pickups only.


@Fuel consumption meter:
That's excactly what I'd like to use/have. Also the open/close delay (see 'theory' above) must be considered to get accurate datas. As said my EE eductaion is rather limited...


@BX19-BX14 conversion:
Ask your registration office which papers are necessary to bring. Ask also Citroen Sweden for a certificate. You can argue that the exhaust standard in Austria and Sweden was the same (US87), otherwise even the little lighter BX14 sedan couldn't passed the exam in late 80ties. It was a question of market politics and not a question of environment. If needed I'd scan the Austrian papers.


@BOSCH Mono-jetronic diagnostics:
Thank you very much torbjorn for the idling hint reading the errors! I'll give them a try. :)


@Acadiane gear box:
Pay attentiaon that LNA (652ccm) is longer than LN (602ccm) gear box --> 4th gear is 10.6% longer than OEM Acadiane/Ami8/Dyane gear box.
You know Jeroens G-box conversion site? Unfortunality we can't ask him but I wonder that he extended thge cross box pipes 2 times (pics). I made an reusable adapter between heater (made of the 2CV exhaust cast parts) and cross box. Pics will come...
I made some small brackets so that cross box is also fixed at the bottom of the G box.


@Visa 9.0:1 piston compression rate:
How much mm did your friend remove? Was ist necessary to modify the piston head?
http://megasquirt-de.serviceline.ch/suc ... ulator.xls is the same sheet as used above, but with Visa datas.
I'm afraid in modifying the piston mass - absolutely no experience!


@Visa + MS performance:
There is a special site about driving with MS http://megasquirt-de.serviceline.ch/suc ... ve0001.htm . Low end torque increases significantly (cruising - yeah!) but power is not more than 40hp, fuel consumption benefit is negligable, at least I don't know a number by heart. 2 times we compared 2CV6+Dyane6 with 2 adults + camping equipment and our heavier Ami Break with 2 adults, 2 children + camping equipment. Ami fuel consumption was little better than the others (same speed, same track).


@123 SPI:
I got a skandinavian 2CV email last year, do you know anything about release? I'm interested in success because I can't believe that many 2CV guys will buy such a thing. At least very few 2CV guys in D and A are intersted in MS.


@Language:
Oh planned to write the OT part in German - but forgot --> all is easy to read for all of you. :) Thanks for German offer. :)

Liebe Grüsse
»Horst

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» Citroën BX14 E.CO.2 Break: TU3M/KDY (iron cast) C/R=10.3:1, AX-Diesel gear box (+22%)
» Citroën Ami8i Break: V06/630 + MS EFI + cat


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Hello Horst,

ami8i skrev:
@Ethanol fuel stations/prices in Austria:
I have no idea, the webiste isn't telling anything about. I guess there will be a start-up nice-price at the beginning. When I fill up the first time I'll ask the owner and report you.


Thanks! I tried to add the coming tankstations in our database
http://www.korridor.se/aryan/acadiane/E ... ionsadmin/

could you verify if the GPS locations seem right? If the googlemap link http://www.korridor.se/aryan/acadiane/E ... order=city shows correct positions it is good.

Once you know any prices you can add them directly in the database.

ami8i skrev:
I told the man in the cylinder head grinding shop about my Ethanol plans and he forwarded me to a petrol station near by, it was BioDiesel and the 'lady' in petrol station AND coffee shop had no idea about --> Austria would not be your favourite vacation place (this year). :)


Yes I know that ethanol is very unknown. I was advocating ethanol and selling these flexible jets for production costs (or gave them away free with a new 123-ignition) on the 2cv WM in Borlänge. Lots of French and German people didn't know there was E85 in their country. Once they realized it was possible to drive a 2cv on bio-energy and more environment friendly lots of people became enthusiastic, I think we got 500 new flexifuel 2cv there :-)

ami8i skrev:
@FlexiTuneII
495Kr ~53€ this days. Is this the DIY kit?


Yes.

ami8i skrev:
@Injector pulse width - my enrichment theory:
Injection pulse width (PW) is the sum of the injector open and close delay and the injection flow time. In the ACII "graphics" below I put the delays in front of constant flow to simplify the chart. In reality there is also a very small delay after the current is switched off:
Kod:
E00:
__***++++_________***++++_________***++++_________
E85:
__***++++++_______***++++++_______***++++++_______

___.....no current, no flow
***.....injector open/close delay (1ms* typically) - no flow...[ms*]
+++.....constant fuel flow...[ms+]

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm says that stoechiometric AFR of E00 is 14,7 and E85 is 9.7 --> ~+50% of flow.
The open/close delay ranges about the same length (idling) and maybe a sixth (at WOT (wide open throttle = high load)) of the given PW by OEM ECU.


a) E85 enrichment at idle:
effective flow ~1ms -->
enrichment = (1ms* + 1.5ms+ ) / ( 1ms* + 1ms+ ) = 2.5/2.0 = 1,25
--> PW_E85 = 1.25 * PW_E00 25% enrichment

b) 85 enrichment at WOT:
effective flow ~6ms -->
enrichment = (1ms* + 9ms+ ) / ( 1ms* + 6ms+ ) = 10/7 = 1.42
--> PW_E85 = 1.42 * PW_E00 42% enrichment

That means that the added amount of fuel is not a constant factor. At least I expect this based on my theory.


Yes I think you're perfectly right in your theory, that is why in the 123-prototype we take into account injector open delay. This is actually possible to sense by measuring the current through the injector which rises once the injector is fully open, much like the current through a ignition coil. I think the flexitune doesn't but I haven't heard that people experience a problem because of this, I think the car's ECU compensates for this once running in closed loop, and when the car is in open loop the extra mixture improves cold starting of course but it might enrich too little when the engine is cold and in open loop, I think it is...

ami8i skrev:
@machined cylinder head:
I checked various compression rates on TU3M engine based on OEM 9.3:1:
10:1....-0.7mm
10.3:1...-1.0mm
12.5:1...-2.6mm!!!
Thank you for the picture.
Except of the troubles with the looong belt you had no problems with touching piston and valve?


Yes I think I took 2,7 mm, no there is still 1 mm left between valves and pistons without the cilinderhead gasket. You can test this with some playdo clay.

ami8i skrev:
Is it possible to add/upload a file? I made a quick and dirty Excel sheet to calc machined height by given/wanted compression ratio.


We haven't got an upload possibillity, but If you put a file on a server somewhere you can link to it, course. Maybe it is a good idea to make a compression calculator on our site, just like our jet size calculator.

ami8i skrev:
@Fuel consumption meter:
That's excactly what I'd like to use/have. Also the open/close delay (see 'theory' above) must be considered to get accurate datas. As said my EE eductaion is rather limited...


At driving speed with longer injection times he opening delay may on the other hand not be influencing consumption calculations very much

ami8i skrev:
@BX19-BX14 conversion:
Ask your registration office which papers are necessary to bring. Ask also Citroen Sweden for a certificate. You can argue that the exhaust standard in Austria and Sweden was the same (US87), otherwise even the little lighter BX14 sedan couldn't passed the exam in late 80ties. It was a question of market politics and not a question of environment. If needed I'd scan the Austrian papers.


Thanx, it would be a very nice experiment I wouldn't count on Citroen Sweden too much but with a copy Austrian papers it should not be impossible. I still have "some" more projects that need my time and attention before otherwise I'd be very very tempted to make such a hybride.

ami8i skrev:
@Acadiane gear box:
Pay attentiaon that LNA (652ccm) is longer than LN (602ccm) gear box --> 4th gear is 10.6% longer than OEM Acadiane/Ami8/Dyane gear box.


That is just what I would like about the conversion, but a major drawback is that I would miss the very short first gear when driving in difficult terrain.

ami8i skrev:
You know Jeroens G-box conversion site? Unfortunality we can't ask him but I wonder that he extended thge cross box pipes 2 times (pics). I made an reusable adapter between heater (made of the 2CV exhaust cast parts) and cross box. Pics will come...
I made some small brackets so that cross box is also fixed at the bottom of the G box.


Did you know Jeroen? Jeroen Cats was a good friend (I'm dutch too), still can't accept that he is not with us anymore. We made some stickers to remember him http://cats-citroen.net/sticker/index.php

I know he had some issues with the crossbox, as well as the rear gearbox mount and that the first gear was quite "high" but this Ami is also gone with the accident. Joke -his former girlfriend- has a hybride of a Ami chassis and old 2cv body with VISA engine and GS gearbox as well, I'll ask her

ami8i skrev:
@Visa 9.0:1 piston compression rate:
How much mm did your friend remove? Was ist necessary to modify the piston head?
http://megasquirt-de.serviceline.ch/suc ... ulator.xls is the same sheet as used above, but with Visa datas.
I'm afraid in modifying the piston mass - absolutely no experience!


I think he took 1 mm from the top of the cylinders both VISA 9:1 and dyane 9:1 sets. I'll check with him if the pistons needed alteration.

ami8i skrev:
@Visa + MS performance:
There is a special site about driving with MS http://megasquirt-de.serviceline.ch/suc ... ve0001.htm . Low end torque increases significantly (cruising - yeah!) but power is not more than 40hp, fuel consumption benefit is negligable, at least I don't know a number by heart. 2 times we compared 2CV6+Dyane6 with 2 adults + camping equipment and our heavier Ami Break with 2 adults, 2 children + camping equipment. Ami fuel consumption was little better than the others (same speed, same track).


Very intreging experiences! I have to read it more later!

ami8i skrev:
@123 SPI:
I got a skandinavian 2CV email last year, do you know anything about release? I'm interested in success because I can't believe that many 2CV guys will buy such a thing. At least very few 2CV guys in D and A are intersted in MS.


A prototype is driving arround but we will make a new TBI again, because it must be easier and cheaper to produce. If the price is right, performance and emissions get better and installation easy and make a 2cv flexifuel I'd think that many people will want to buy?

Greetings Aryan

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Hello Aryan,

@E85 fuel station in Graz:
Just called the Avanti stataion in Graz who is going to provide E85. The petrol pump (+equipment) is installed, the employee get a briefing on October, 4th and then they estimate(!) that they're allowed to sell E85. BTW the leaseholder (~owner) of the station does not know why his station was selected by the owner of Avanti (OMV). He's just to accept.
He asked me if I know another E85 station in Graz.
Price is also unknown this day.


@Injector PW:
thanks for confirming my theory.

Current is measured to feed the µC the OEM ECU PW? Or the time when current flows? (Low-Z injectors are fired by peak-and-hold (current) with PWM).

Good point that (constant) enrichment in open loop will 'help' at least not bother.


@Your 12.5:1 KDY cylinder head:
Did you test the 1mm distance with fixing the belt or 'just' putting the cylinder head on block (pistion in TDC)?
As you already know, I forwarded your information to the technical AX forum. :)


@Fuel consumption meter:
I 'know' that the open/close delay could be ignored if I want to know only which gear is best for fuel consumption - but when I have to spend some effort and money to realize a DIY-BC I guess it's worth to consider. Minimum error is ~20% (WOT) rises up to 100% (idle).
If you can tell me a simpele analog circuit (IC?) wich just drives a LED bar I'd not say no. :)


@long gear box:
I feel more disadvantage of the long 1st gear on BX Break than on Ami Break. I can't control clutch so soft --> I have to avoid wet gras or (road) metal(?) in real off road area. I had one year a BX Break 4WD --> a spoilt brat. Maybe we'll see snow this year to test snow climbing.


@Jeroen Cats:
PM


@G-box:
I miss some pics from documentation. :( I hope to finde them...

I made a bracket at the bottom on each side to provide a bolt to fix the 2CV cross box. Each bracket is fixed as 'washer' with 2 or 2 of the infinity gearbox screws.


@Visa 9.0:1 piston compression rate:
Would be fine if you could find out which piston alteration was required.


@123 TBI:
It would be nice if more people boost their 2CV into the late 80ties of the last century. :) I like the idea to include ALL in/on the TBI to keep the unit simple. Maybe this is would be the secret to cheer the 2CV community.
Does 123 plan to pass at least Euro2?
Unfortunality 123 isn't interested to share information, a well educated 2CV-technician-friend and 123-customer got rather fragmentary ignition technical information on WM in Vinadio (IIRC 1st release of selctable advance characteristics).

Seems that we drift to the A model thread...

»Horst

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» Citroën BX14 E.CO.2 Break: TU3M/KDY (iron cast) C/R=10.3:1, AX-Diesel gear box (+22%)
» Citroën Ami8i Break: V06/630 + MS EFI + cat


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Hello Horst,

ami8i skrev:
@E85 fuel station in Graz:
Just called the Avanti stataion in Graz who is going to provide E85. The petrol pump (+equipment) is installed, the employee get a briefing on October, 4th and then they estimate(!) that they're allowed to sell E85. BTW the leaseholder (~owner) of the station does not know why his station was selected by the owner of Avanti (OMV). He's just to accept.
He asked me if I know another E85 station in Graz.
Price is also unknown this day.


Thanks! Can you change the opening date of http://www.korridor.se/aryan/acadiane/E ... ml?id=1619 and change price when they open! Did I get the right coordinates position? http://www.korridor.se/aryan/acadiane/E ... ml?id=1619 ?

ami8i skrev:
@Injector PW:
thanks for confirming my theory.

Current is measured to feed the µC the OEM ECU PW? Or the time when current flows? (Low-Z injectors are fired by peak-and-hold (current) with PWM).


When you measure the current between injector and whatever switches the ininjector current (OEM ECU or piggy-back system) you can see that the current rises (for the second tie) once the injector has fully opened, one could use that to calculate the injector opening time. In the OEM ecu I think this is not done not even on peak and hold low impedance systems because they already "know" the opening delay of the injector att diffrent voltage levels and compensate for that, but an universal piggy back system could use the current to determinate when it is fully open.

ami8i skrev:
Good point that (constant) enrichment in open loop will 'help' at least not bother.


Well, starting and idling is then no problem but as soon as you touch the accelorator the engine dies as long as it is cold, been there done that, far from optimal!

ami8i skrev:
@Your 12.5:1 KDY cylinder head:
Did you test the 1mm distance with fixing the belt or 'just' putting the cylinder head on block (pistion in TDC)?
As you already know, I forwarded your information to the technical AX forum. :)


With belt on, but I think the AX (at least the "GT") has mote power and possibly a camaxle with more lift and/or duration so I do not give you any garantees that it is always ok...

ami8i skrev:
@Fuel consumption meter:
I 'know' that the open/close delay could be ignored if I want to know only which gear is best for fuel consumption - but when I have to spend some effort and money to realize a DIY-BC I guess it's worth to consider. Minimum error is ~20% (WOT) rises up to 100% (idle).
If you can tell me a simpele analog circuit (IC?) wich just drives a LED bar I'd not say no. :)


A local firm sells an electronic instrument that shows dutycycle in percent directly for 14 euro
Bild

But as a test you can use a ignition dwellangle meter on the injector too, if you put it on 4-cyl 90° is 100% duty cycle, and for compairative tests that doesn't matter anyway. I've done that, very nice to see how much the accelerator affects fuel consumption!

ami8i skrev:
@long gear box:
I feel more disadvantage of the long 1st gear on BX Break than on Ami Break. I can't control clutch so soft --> I have to avoid wet gras or (road) metal(?) in real off road area. I had one year a BX Break 4WD --> a spoilt brat. Maybe we'll see snow this year to test snow climbing.


And snow is getting more and more unusual :-(

ami8i skrev:
Seems that we drift to the A model thread...

»Horst


Yess I moved it there!

greetings, Aryan

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Hello Aryan,

@E85 stations in Austria:
Sorry forgot to mention that the Google map looks ok. I didn't check the positions exactly since I'm not so familiar with GPS and those fancy (java?) www tools.

I checked http://darwin.korridor.se/aryan/acadian ... rch=suchen and found 21 Bio-Ethanol stations.
I tested all links or googled around, some of the stations sell Bio-Disel but no Bio-Ethanol.

AVIA no Google result that E85 is offered in A.
Esso no website/Google result that E85 is offered in A.
KREUZMAYR no website/Google result that E85 is offered in A.
speed DISKONT no Google result that E85 is offered in A.
AUTO FELHOFER no website/Google result that E85 is offered in A.

Do you know the map of http://www.sugre.info/ ? There is also the Avanti station in Graz, but no other.

@Avanti E85 in Graz:
» "Hinzufügen einer Preis" is not correct: "Hinzufügen eines Preises" or "Hinzufügen des Preises"
I tried to type 'ab 4.10.2007' but this is not allowed.

» Multimap: Just Nr1 is right
» Google Maps: is ok
» Google Earth kml: Haven't downloaded the software

Ȁnderung der Tankstelleninfo:
-Please replace 2x "fuche" with "füge" oder "fuege".
-I couldn't save cell "Mehr Adressinformationen, Routeninfo, Autobahnen, Abfahrten usw:" with "E85 ab 4. oder 5.10.2007 erhältlich" ('Uppgifterna uppdaterades')?
»The same when I tried to update price "vorhandene Rabatte:"

I use Mozilla 2.0.0.2 with Cookies allowed. Maybe some Java... are not updated.


@How to measure Injector PW:
You're right, OEM ECUs calc injector PW by them self and deliver a signal to bord computer.
For example early Opel BCs got the signal by picking up the injector(s). There are so many BC releases that I can't predict which one is correct --> find&buy&try&error . Recently I missed one on ebay (0€).

I'll keep in mind the PW = current measure idea, to be hoenstly I haven't understood it completely. But an EE should explain it to me. :)

Also thank you for the smart dwell angle meter idea! I have not such a tool but an analog voltage meter could 'intergrate' the signal too.


@Your 12.5:1 KDY cylinder head:
Thanks for clearing up. AX GT has usually 75hp --> KDZ, KDY engine --> same valve timing/lifting expected.



»Horst

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» Citroën Ami8i Break: V06/630 + MS EFI + cat


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Hello Horst,

ami8i skrev:
Hello Aryan,

@E85 stations in Austria:
Sorry forgot to mention that the Google map looks ok. I didn't check the positions exactly since I'm not so familiar with GPS and those fancy (java?) www tools.


Thanks, if it is ok on the map the GPS coordinates should be fine, they use the same coordinates.

ami8i skrev:
I checked http://darwin.korridor.se/aryan/acadian ... rch=suchen and found 21 Bio-Ethanol stations.
I tested all links or googled around, some of the stations sell Bio-Disel but no Bio-Ethanol.

AVIA no Google result that E85 is offered in A.
Esso no website/Google result that E85 is offered in A.
KREUZMAYR no website/Google result that E85 is offered in A.
speed DISKONT no Google result that E85 is offered in A.
AUTO FELHOFER no website/Google result that E85 is offered in A.

Do you know the map of http://www.sugre.info/ ? There is also the Avanti station in Graz, but no other.


Danke, I got the information that these tankstations would start to sell E85 for ca one year ago, and still they haven't got any! I will check the with the main E85 source in europe and otherwise disable these.

ami8i skrev:
@Avanti E85 in Graz:
» "Hinzufügen einer Preis" is not correct: "Hinzufügen eines Preises" or "Hinzufügen des Preises"
I tried to type 'ab 4.10.2007' but this is not allowed.


Aha difficult to change the language part withouth changing a lot more "Hinzufügen einer" is for example also used in the sentence "Hinzufügen einer Tanstelle" didn't think enough of the consequences when I made the language tables.

ami8i skrev:
» Multimap: Just Nr1 is right
» Google Maps: is ok
» Google Earth kml: Haven't downloaded the software


Danke!

ami8i skrev:
Ȁnderung der Tankstelleninfo:
-Please replace 2x "fuche" with "füge" oder "fuege".


Thanx, fixed!

ami8i skrev:
-I couldn't save cell "Mehr Adressinformationen, Routeninfo, Autobahnen, Abfahrten usw:" with "E85 ab 4. oder 5.10.2007 erhältlich" ('Uppgifterna uppdaterades')?


Yes you could! I see it in the atabase now, normally I put a future opening date in the date field, not totally logical but it works.

»The same when I tried to update price "vorhandene Rabatte:"

I use Mozilla 2.0.0.2 with Cookies allowed. Maybe some Java... are not updated.[/quote]

Should just work, no need for Java.

ami8i skrev:
@How to measure Injector PW:
You're right, OEM ECUs calc injector PW by them self and deliver a signal to bord computer.
For example early Opel BCs got the signal by picking up the injector(s). There are so many BC releases that I can't predict which one is correct --> find&buy&try&error . Recently I missed one on ebay (0€).

I'll keep in mind the PW = current measure idea, to be hoenstly I haven't understood it completely. But an EE should explain it to me. :)

Also thank you for the smart dwell angle meter idea! I have not such a tool but an analog voltage meter could 'intergrate' the signal too.


@Your 12.5:1 KDY cylinder head:
Thanks for clearing up. AX GT has usually 75hp --> KDZ, KDY engine --> same valve timing/lifting expected.

»Horst


Ok I thought there where 90-100 hp engines as well.

/Aryan

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Hello Ayran,

@KDY + E85 preparation
This days I welded a 36-1 (ex children bicycle I like to use bike parts in ca! :) toothwheel on the pulley and welded an adjustable 'device' to keep a BDY 60-2 trigger sensor in position.
In Ami8 I use the KDY diagnose VR sensor sucessfully, but maybe the 'fat' OEM BDY trigger sensor is more robust, less noise sensitive...
My goal is to trigger MegaSquirt1 and a Ford EDIS module to provide 2 12x12 spark maps (MAP vs rpm).
Maybe I replace also the OEM MonoJetronic ECU one day.


@E85 + fuel pump:
I asked a Citroën MegaSquirt member about E85 and 'petrol' parts. He shared his very interesting expereinces:
Citat:
Most fuelpumps actually has no problems whatsoever with the E85 fuel, but pums that has been pumping gasoline for some years have a tendency to wear out quickly when swithing to E85, which is a story in itself. But the people i discuss E85 conversions with have had the same experience as me, and that is that when you switch a "degraded" fuelpump that earlier pumped gasoline the new pump runs foe years without problems with E85. The ones with longest trialperiods have been driving for over 5 years now with quite different cars, from honda civis/ford mondeos/citroen bx:s/volvos/saabs and so on.


»Horst

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» Citroën BX14 E.CO.2 Break: TU3M/KDY (iron cast) C/R=10.3:1, AX-Diesel gear box (+22%)
» Citroën Ami8i Break: V06/630 + MS EFI + cat


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ami8i skrev:
@KDY + E85 preparation
This days I welded a 36-1 (ex children bicycle I like to use bike parts in car! :) toothwheel on the pulley and welded an adjustable 'device' to keep a BDY 60-2 trigger sensor in position.
In Ami8 I use the KDY diagnose VR sensor sucessfully, but maybe the 'fat' OEM BDY trigger sensor is more robust, less noise sensitive...
My goal is to trigger MegaSquirt1 and a Ford EDIS module to provide 2 12x12 spark maps (MAP vs rpm).
Maybe I replace also the OEM MonoJetronic ECU one day.


Good work! I just moved my old Bosch dizzy 8 degrees earlier but of coarse that is far from optimal.

ami8i skrev:
@E85 + fuel pump:
I asked a Citroën MegaSquirt member about E85 and 'petrol' parts. He shared his very interesting expereinces:
Citat:
Most fuelpumps actually has no problems whatsoever with the E85 fuel, but pums that has been pumping gasoline for some years have a tendency to wear out quickly when swithing to E85, which is a story in itself. But the people i discuss E85 conversions with have had the same experience as me, and that is that when you switch a "degraded" fuelpump that earlier pumped gasoline the new pump runs foe years without problems with E85. The ones with longest trialperiods have been driving for over 5 years now with quite different cars, from honda civis/ford mondeos/citroen bx:s/volvos/saabs and so on.


»Horst


Aha interesting theory, however I can't see the meganism how a fuelpump would get degraded with petrol so it would become less ethanol proof. I think old pumps just wear oit faster because they are old already? I've been in contact with a fuel pump manufactorer and they told me that continious use with E85 would't be a problem but intermittent use with E85 over the years could wear the copper collector faster. There are pumps with carbon composite collectors that will not wear at all.

I do not really care, you can now get new "made in China" Bosch clones for 50€ here, so if a new pump needs replacing after 5 years it is not a big cost. Othewise I'd might try to find a carbon collector type pump.

/Aryan

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InläggPostat: tis 07-10-09 13:24 
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Blev medlem: mån 07-09-24 00:23
Inlägg: 49
Ort: Austria (Graz)
Hello Ayran,

@E85 + petrol damages:
Maybe 2 really different solvents are able to be solvent for this and or that component in plastics.
Unfortunality I found no serious source (paper, automotive manufacturer...) for about further details of E85 influence in/at petrol designed parts.


@E85 fuel stations in Austria:
Just updated the Avanti station in Vienna, Guldengasse http://www.korridor.se/aryan/acadiane/E ... ?id=1618__
0.91€ per Litre.
The Avanti station in Graz, Fischergasse is going to sell E85 on 15. 16. or 17.10.2007. Price and any other inforamtion isn't avalaible!

»Horst

_________________
» Citroën BX14 E.CO.2 Break: TU3M/KDY (iron cast) C/R=10.3:1, AX-Diesel gear box (+22%)
» Citroën Ami8i Break: V06/630 + MS EFI + cat


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InläggPostat: tis 07-10-09 13:38 
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Blev medlem: lör 06-12-23 09:31
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ami8i skrev:
Hello Ayran,

@E85 + petrol damages:
Maybe 2 really different solvents are able to be solvent for this and or that component in plastics.
Unfortunality I found no serious source (paper, automotive manufacturer...) for about further details of E85 influence in/at petrol designed parts.


Maybe yes, however we still haven't seen any proof of such a problem. The main issue you can expect is that you might need to replace the fuelfilter an extra time because the ethanol can solve old dirt and sediments in the tank. Once these are gone you benifit of a cleaner fuel system.

ami8i skrev:
@E85 fuel stations in Austria:
Just updated the Avanti station in Vienna, Guldengasse http://www.korridor.se/aryan/acadiane/E ... ?id=1618__
0.91€ per Litre.
The Avanti station in Graz, Fischergasse is going to sell E85 on 15. 16. or 17.10.2007. Price and any other inforamtion isn't avalaible!

»Horst


Thanks a lot and congratulations with your first ethanol station! I hope the one near you opens when promised.

/Aryan

_________________
Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


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