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InläggPostat: tor 07-11-08 00:05 
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Blev medlem: mån 07-09-24 00:23
Inlägg: 49
Ort: Austria (Graz)
Hello,
just want to give you my 1st report with E85 in BX14 tank.


@Ethanol inside:
It took some time that a) the E85 station in Graz was able to deliver E85 and b) I had a ride nearby with car.
Unfortunality I had not enough momey with me so I could just get ~45l E85. Mixed with rest of gas/petrol in tank the mixture was "E74".

When I left the station it was sunny and 10-15°C, I felt no difference between E0 or E5 (was Slovenian gas filled up before E5 law was introduced).
I had to climb up a small hill, I couldn't feel lean out at WOT (=open loop). But I'm not so sensitive on 'seat of the pants'.

@Cold start/warm up:
Each of the next two mornings I did a cold start:
» +2°C, very dry, no white frost/hoarfrost, no touch on gas pedal: Engine comes up as usually but starves at once. This was done twice, at 3rd turn the engine kept running.
» +2°C, much white frost/hoarfrost because it rained during night, I moved the pedal, engine came up at once, but required rather much air --> high idle. I had to go by car, the engine felt like in old carbed days without or less pushed choke. Cruising was no problem, but hard acceleration lean out the engine. No problem to handle.

I was surprised that the engine started quick. As Ayran said earlier (or in a PM) this must be caused on the wider explosion limits of Ethanol. I was afraid in cranking and cranking without hearing any 'alive'-feedback.


My wife will make a 150km trip on Saturday so I filled up to max but with petrol --> new mixture is E66. This will cause no problems during trip or starting in cold evening.
And I can watch fuel economy better if tank is full.
In some weeks I can try out to approximate to E85...


@E85 fuel station in Graz/Austria:
I'll try to maintain the http://darwin.korridor.se/aryan/acadian ... ml?id=1619 and add other stations in Graz (if there will open any in the next time).
I asked the Avanti petrol pump attendant about 'frquency' of E85 customers. The OMV E85 instructor team told them that they could expect 2 to 3 customers per week. I was the no 3 on that day (~13:00), he estimated 10 customers per week. The local government has 2 FFVs. In Austria not more than 4- 50 FFVs are registered.
The E85 petrol pump is 'locked' with a simple stick so that it is a little diffiult to take the wrong stuff. No special label or huge warning sign, just a small note that E85 is for FFV only otherwise it would harm the engine.
1 litre is 0,961€.


@E85+KDZ/KDY:
Here I stop with KDY/KDZ thread when mixture etc is discussed, I'll continue in the more suitable http://etanol.nu/forumrecover/viewtopic.php?t=1674 "E85 + BOSCHMonoJetronicA2.2 and other alpha-n controllers" thread to discuss improvent of the controlled fuel amount.


@E85 + better ignition and fuel map:
But when I remove the dizzy and its bad ignition 'map' with MegaSquirt Controller some day I'll update in this thread the engine/hardware modifications.

»Horst

_________________
» Citroën BX14 E.CO.2 Break: TU3M/KDY (iron cast) C/R=10.3:1, AX-Diesel gear box (+22%)
» Citroën Ami8i Break: V06/630 + MS EFI + cat


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InläggPostat: ons 08-01-09 12:46 
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Blev medlem: mån 07-09-24 00:23
Inlägg: 49
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Hello Ayran,
I try to keep KDZ/KDY questions in this topic.

@spark plug:
OEM BX14 (KDY/KDZ) spark plugs are:
NGK BCP6E (alternative BCP6ES)
Champion RC9YC or C9YCX
Eyquem FC52LS
Which spark plug do you use in Swedish winter and summer? I'd thought one level 'colder' than OEM (petrol) but recently I read that E85 requires 3 levels less (which I can't believe).


@TDC sensor:
Quote of http://etanol.nu/forumrecover/viewtopic ... 5025#15025
aryan skrev:
ami8i skrev:
@PSA TDC-sensor:
I tried to find out spark advance with soundcard and laptop. The BX voltage is high enough to charge the laptop battery --> I'm able to play around. :) But I couldn't get a 'clean' signal of the TDC sensor. The mechanic had also no idea (and manual) about this old fashioned sensor. It's not a common inductive senor because it's not able to trigger an ignition module (Ford EDIS) which needs an inductive senor (magnetic is felt) (I learnde the hard way). There are three wires: one shielding and 2 signal wires. I can't believe that it is a Hall sensor.

It is not similar to a Citroen VISA 2-cyl sensor, one +12V creating a magnetic field and one sinal cable?
I don't believe that the TU TDC is similar to the very special Visa sensors. In my opinion the Visa sensors are deviant from known sensors (Hall, inductive) because it was the very first electronic OEM ignition. So I think that the developers didn't found the cheapest possible sensor. Visa sensors has 3 contacts:
»+12V (ignition)
» signal (to 'ECU')
» Gnd, either on sensor itself (clock bell or seperated wire at later models)

I heard that some CX engines (early GTI?) has a similar ignition setup with 2 sensors. Visa sensors?

IIRC the Diesel tachometer [rpm] uses the same sensor but with longer wire. A BX friend of mine got a sensor of my collection. Now I'm not sure if he got a TU-TDC sensor (shoerter wire) or an OEM XUD Diesel sensor because I scrapped a 17RD in this days.

I checked BX Diesel manual. The circuit diagramme shows an inductive sensor (symbol for coil) and 4 wires (pins) are connected to the tachometer.
» +12V (ignition fuse F1)
» Gnd
» 2 wires to sensor.
The circuit doesn't tell anything about the connection between each pin.

»Horst

_________________
» Citroën BX14 E.CO.2 Break: TU3M/KDY (iron cast) C/R=10.3:1, AX-Diesel gear box (+22%)
» Citroën Ami8i Break: V06/630 + MS EFI + cat


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InläggPostat: ons 08-01-09 13:19 
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Blev medlem: lör 06-12-23 09:31
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ami8i skrev:
Hello Ayran,
I try to keep KDZ/KDY questions in this topic.


Good :-)

ami8i skrev:
@spark plug:
OEM BX14 (KDY/KDZ) spark plugs are:
NGK BCP6E (alternative BCP6ES)
Champion RC9YC or C9YCX
Eyquem FC52LS
Which spark plug do you use in Swedish winter and summer? I'd thought one level 'colder' than OEM (petrol) but recently I read that E85 requires 3 levels less (which I can't believe).


I use OEm plugs and I don't see why one whould want to use colder plugs unless the OEM plugs wear unusually fast. Warmer plugs -might or might not- help the first km's after cold start.

ami8i skrev:
@TDC sensor:
Quote of http://etanol.nu/forumrecover/viewtopic ... 5025#15025
aryan skrev:
ami8i skrev:
@PSA TDC-sensor:
I tried to find out spark advance with soundcard and laptop. The BX voltage is high enough to charge the laptop battery --> I'm able to play around. :) But I couldn't get a 'clean' signal of the TDC sensor. The mechanic had also no idea (and manual) about this old fashioned sensor. It's not a common inductive senor because it's not able to trigger an ignition module (Ford EDIS) which needs an inductive senor (magnetic is felt) (I learnde the hard way). There are three wires: one shielding and 2 signal wires. I can't believe that it is a Hall sensor.

It is not similar to a Citroen VISA 2-cyl sensor, one +12V creating a magnetic field and one sinal cable?
I don't believe that the TU TDC is similar to the very special Visa sensors. In my opinion the Visa sensors are deviant from known sensors (Hall, inductive) because it was the very first electronic OEM ignition. So I think that the developers didn't found the cheapest possible sensor. Visa sensors has 3 contacts:
»+12V (ignition)
» signal (to 'ECU')
» Gnd, either on sensor itself (clock bell or seperated wire at later models)

I heard that some CX engines (early GTI?) has a similar ignition setup with 2 sensors. Visa sensors?

IIRC the Diesel tachometer [rpm] uses the same sensor but with longer wire. A BX friend of mine got a sensor of my collection. Now I'm not sure if he got a TU-TDC sensor (shoerter wire) or an OEM XUD Diesel sensor because I scrapped a 17RD in this days.

I checked BX Diesel manual. The circuit diagramme shows an inductive sensor (symbol for coil) and 4 wires (pins) are connected to the tachometer.
» +12V (ignition fuse F1)
» Gnd
» 2 wires to sensor.
The circuit doesn't tell anything about the connection between each pin.

»Horst


Sounds like you know the BX sensor better than I, I took away mine once it was in the way in the silver BX but didn't studie it in detail, in the redBX it probably is still there but haven't checked yet. If the generator has a W connection you could use that as a (ca 15V AC, /frequency dependent on engine speed) tacho signal which you should easily be able to convert down for a soundcard

/Aryan

_________________
Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


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InläggPostat: tor 08-01-17 11:09 
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Blev medlem: mån 07-09-24 00:23
Inlägg: 49
Ort: Austria (Graz)
Hello Ayran,

@Another Monojetronic Enrichment technology:
Some advanced AX guys replace their quartz of the OEM Monojetronic ECU to beat the rev limiter (e.g. 8MHz). 'Disadvantage' is that mixture leans out, so they increase fuel pressure and/or use a bigger injector (of stronger Monojetronic engine) to compensate for their racing fun.

The freqency is also responsible for idle speed (increases with frequency).
Idle speed and mixture is a linear function of frequency -> easy to predict (mixture).

Since my goal is not to be a raceman I can live with lower rev limit and lower idle speed.
In Monojetronic the OEM frequency is 6.0MHz. Unfortunality I could find just ...5.0, 5.0688, 5.1, 5.12, 5.2 5.9904, 6.0, 6.144, 6.5536MHz....
I soldered 5.2 (E85), 6.0 (OEM) and 6.144 (maybe for easier exhaust gas test) with a gap for another quartz. Maybe I find one day any with ~5.6MHz very similar like this guy (but I used shorter wires and glued the PCB on an IC and CPU nearby) http://breithecker.org/Bilder/pictures/ ... Quarze.jpg . Note this is a Monojetronic MA3.0 ECU with OEM 12MHz.

Yesterday evening I made a first test ride, rember my fuel pressure is risen to about 30PSI, E74 inside, OEM ignition setup:
The 5.2MHz quartz was fine during warm up, engine accelerated very smootly beginning at lowest revolutions. When engine was warmed up it was not fine to step down pedal, just the first quarter of gas pedal way was good (closed loop?, no DMM was conected in the darkness). At WOT the engine wasn't really powerful, felt lazy.
Funny thing was that idle speed was high (~1100-1300rpm). I guess the ECU was not able to make shorter injection 'times' (less clocks) so idle speed motor rised up to supply engine with more air.

6.0MHz and 6.144MHz were (slightly) lean at acceleration and WOT, but were felt better than the 5.2MHz quartz. Idle speed with 6.144MHz was 950-1000rpm.

Conclusio:
I will remove one (of two) washer to take care of the Ethanol suffering fuel pump. 5.2MHz + slightly risen fuel pressure should be enough to be prepared for 'pure' E85.


@Risen idle in December 2007:
Do you remeber that I had troubles with an idle speed of ~1500rpm in early December (and bad HC)? Maybe anything caused to drop more fuel than wanted/needed and idle speed motor 'helped'. (I hadn't rised fuel pressure). Maybe some recently 'solved' dirt blocked the injector.

»Horst

_________________
» Citroën BX14 E.CO.2 Break: TU3M/KDY (iron cast) C/R=10.3:1, AX-Diesel gear box (+22%)
» Citroën Ami8i Break: V06/630 + MS EFI + cat


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InläggPostat: tor 08-01-17 11:48 
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Blev medlem: lör 06-12-23 09:31
Inlägg: 7095
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Hi Horst,

Very interresting hack :-)

I am a bit puzled that the 5,2 Mhz cristal resulted in a Lazy engine at WOT though. It does make me think it did not run rich but poor instead!

With E85 you have to have a very very rich mixture before you loose power, but maybe it was that much too rich.

Otherwise I think you a ripe for a flexitune, a 50 euro kit http://www.flexitune.se/document/FLEXIT ... isning.pdf that lets you adjust the injection timing between 100-200% with a potentiometer and with an external swicht you can switch betweeen no alternation to the choosen setting and an in between (50%) setting in case you have som mixture in your tank. It also has som extra stat enriching feature.

Greetings Aryan

_________________
Komplettera gärna data om dit piggybacksystem här: http://www.editgrid.com/user/aryan/E85_piggyback_system och här viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6352


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InläggPostat: tor 08-01-17 21:06 
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Blev medlem: mån 07-09-24 00:23
Inlägg: 49
Ort: Austria (Graz)
Hello Ayran,
I belive to the AX freak Mario an well educated electronic guy. Some days ago I got a prototype of his mdified DIY-CDI . Base was http://www.molla.org/DIY-CDI/ - but now with Atmega inside to control multi and dual spark, datalogging, later maybe a spark map. When installing is clear for me I'll try it in BX.

The engine didn't feel lean because when it leanded out the power broke down immediately.
But without looking at O2 sensors voltage all is just speculation. :)


Thanks for Flexitune II link. pdf was just saved on HDD in August 2007 when I started with Ethanol research. I'll not spend 50€ for such an item because in some months MegaSquirt will do injection for me.

But the circuit would be very interesting because I expect that it is able to feed the µC with pulse width.
Plus frequency of VSS (vehicle speed sensor)
plus any output device (LCD...) and
plus 'some' code and the fuel consumption meter is ready...


»Horst

_________________
» Citroën BX14 E.CO.2 Break: TU3M/KDY (iron cast) C/R=10.3:1, AX-Diesel gear box (+22%)
» Citroën Ami8i Break: V06/630 + MS EFI + cat


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