Etanol.nu

Forum för föreningen etanol.nu
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InläggPostat: fre 07-06-01 16:27 
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I'm not sure what legal limits you really have in Germany, but in all EU states there is the "1400/2002/EG (Block Exemption Regulation)". It specifically points out the right for a workshop to use "pirate" parts for instance.
The aim is to keep costs down for the consumers.

One "pirate part" could be a fuel pressure regulator, another a catalyst.
These are more or less std-parts that highly are affecting the exhaust emissions.
The legal conclusion of this is that I find it difficult to beleive that the official checks really can block your car if it passes the emissions test.
Ofcourse all emission related parts must be adjusted accordingly but thats covered by the test.
In Sweden this is expressed in the law by "the user of the car is responsible for that the car is adjusted and maintained correctly when it comes to the systems controling exhaust emissions."

We have had one single case here in Sweden (as we know of) ,where the official checker didn't approve a car since the FPR was replaced by a Malpassi, despite the fact that it passed the emissions test.
This non-approval we find illegal at etanol.nu in fact.

The car owner didn't have the time to put up a case since he needed the car the same day, so he converted the car in another, not so visible, way instead, but as I see it, this could have been a case for the european commission since he only had used a universal spare part and adjusted it correctly.
To disapprove such a car is a violation of the "1400/2002/EG (Block Exemption Regulation)". http://www.gva.de/upload/BER_Brochure_f ... ch_249.pdf

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Senast redigerad av karlmb fre 07-06-01 16:40, redigerad totalt 1 gång.

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Volvo-Berti skrev:
explanation: ABE is a document which declares that the car compares with the german regulations.


This is probably what is called "typgodkännande" or "helbilsgodkännande" in Sweden a EU certificat for the car.

Volvo-Berti skrev:
1.
Citat:
I do not know much about the "Allgemeinen Betriebserlaubnis (ABE)" but I'd suspect that any conversion method: raised pressure, piggyback or larger injectors would not be covered by the ABE.

Or is that not correct?

you are right in the first and second point, both will suspend the ABE, because the parts themselves especially the box) have no ABE or make changings to the car which can change the cars property.

at point three i am not sure, but i got some information that this is no problem, if the other injectors do not make the car running out of the exhaust values and let the car get not more power :wink:


The car will get some more power. I'd be very supprised if the controller/ABE allows you to put in other fuel injectors, but I wouldn't telll them either, as long as nobody notices..

Volvo-Berti skrev:
2.
Citat:
I guess the question is what is checked and not every year...
A piggyback is easier to find than a larger injector..

yeah, the official checks are every 2 years, and the engine's exhaust will be tested at this check. if the controller find such a box without its ABE, the whole car will have no ABE any longer!! :evil:


Only every two years? Just take out the malpassi or conversion box put in some petrol in the tank to pass the test and put everything back afterwards? Or is that to anarchistic for you?

I think the situation with the climat now is too urgent to bother/wait about old regulation and calls for some drastic measurements.

/Aryan


Senast redigerad av aryan fre 07-06-01 19:25, redigerad totalt 1 gång.

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There is no violation against the law, Aryan!

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Even better.

/Aryan


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@karlmb

i read the pdf you have linked to, and the content of this only points at spare parts to replace origin parts after a crash, e.g., but it is not a regulation that allows to install any parts you want.

passing the emission test (only with allowed parts (like catalyst or fuel pressure regulation)) is one of the basics to drive the car for the next two years. even if you pass the check, and the tester finds a not allowed part, there is no way to get the sticker by the technical inspection authority.

@Aryan

you are damned right, the climate sitiuation needs urgend action. and its not to anarchistic to drive with ethanol, my car just passed the 2-year-technical check in March, even driven under E50 :)

the problem is more a legal one: if anything happens, like an accident, and the following check shows that there are illegal parts build in, the insurance company must not pay! and if a shit like this happens, you could see me doing this :cry:

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http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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and now to the temperature calculations Aryan made.

i learned to make those calculations ten years or more ago, so i asked a physicist how to calculate the thermal load.

this is the result:

to be on the safe site we calculate the deliverd energy (to cooling circle and crank shaft) like driving regular benzine.
the exhaust temp is in relation to the parts (molecules), which are in the exhaust, and in relation to the inlet temp and the "vaporization energy" of the fuel.

if we look at lambda=1, then we get an defcided air quantity, which is needed, and in relation to this the ethanol quantity and its energy.

the parts mass in the exhaust for benzine and ethanol is identical at lambda=1.

so there are only the heating value and the vaporization value left.
examing the vaporization it is irrelevant where the fuel vaporize, before entering the cylinder or in the cylinder. the energy to vaporize is needed and is taken from the air in the intake section or from the "cylinders air".

the engines temp is irrelevant, too, if we look at the energetic relations. to heat up (or coool down) a decided air part quantity with a decided temp difference, its always the same energy quantity - not viewing the irregulations like pahse change...

mass relations at lambda=1:
benzine 14,7
ethanol: 9,76
->E / B = 1,50...

heating- / calorific values
def: heating value contains the exhaust energy as a deficite; calorific value is the energy contained by the "raw mass"

data taken from Wikipedia: benzine hv 47, cv 43,6 MJ/kg; ethanol hv 29,7, cv 26,8 MJ/kg

to burn 1 kg benzine we need 14,7 kg air (lambda=1) -> heating value 47 MJ, burning ethanol is then 29,7*1,5 = 44,55 MJ .... not really cooler, isn' t it?

calorific value at 14,7kg Luft:
Benzin: 43,6 MJ
alcohol: 26,8*1,5 = 40,2MJ .... even not really cool ;)

the difference between heating value and calorific value is the exhaust energy
benzine: 3,7 MJ
alcohol: (29,7-26,8)*1,5 = 4,35 MJ

that calculation shows NOT a cooler temp, even a higher one, ~ 18% .... e.g. 700°C burning temp -> rising up to 825°C !!!

vaporization energy
(your values B:150 BTU/gal Alc: 359BTU/gal...): nothing really necessary to look at, because if we set them in relation to the heating values (Benzin 125.000 BTU/gal; Alc: 84.000 BTU/gal), they are not more than 0,1 to 0,4% ....

as you can see, there are not any cooling effects caused by vaporization. no, the opposite is even more the problem. we have a rising exhaust temperature

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best wishes from here :)
Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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Volvo-Berti skrev:
@karlmb

i read the pdf you have linked to, and the content of this only points at spare parts to replace origin parts after a crash, e.g., but it is not a regulation that allows to install any parts you want.

passing the emission test (only with allowed parts (like catalyst or fuel pressure regulation)) is one of the basics to drive the car for the next two years. even if you pass the check, and the tester finds a not allowed part, there is no way to get the sticker by the technical inspection authority.



Where do you see the word "crash repairs only"?
Instead I see pictures of engine parts, even a downpipe with a catalyst.
The pdf is about all kinds of repair work on used cars in use in EU.
If you technical inspection authority bans the use of a non-"original" catalyst for instance, do you mean that you don't get the sticker?
So you are not allowed to use the car??
Have there really been cases like that, I would suggest a report to the EU-commission!

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Volvo-Berti skrev:
and now to the temperature calculations Aryan made.

i learned to make those calculations ten years or more ago, so i asked a physicist how to calculate the thermal load.

this is the result:

to be on the safe site we calculate the deliverd energy (to cooling circle and crank shaft) like driving regular benzine.
the exhaust temp is in relation to the parts (molecules), which are in the exhaust, and in relation to the inlet temp and the "vaporization energy" of the fuel.

if we look at lambda=1, then we get an defcided air quantity, which is needed, and in relation to this the ethanol quantity and its energy.

the parts mass in the exhaust for benzine and ethanol is identical at lambda=1.

so there are only the heating value and the vaporization value left.
examing the vaporization it is irrelevant where the fuel vaporize, before entering the cylinder or in the cylinder. the energy to vaporize is needed and is taken from the air in the intake section or from the "cylinders air".

the engines temp is irrelevant, too, if we look at the energetic relations. to heat up (or coool down) a decided air part quantity with a decided temp difference, its always the same energy quantity - not viewing the irregulations like pahse change...

mass relations at lambda=1:
benzine 14,7
ethanol: 9,76
->E / B = 1,50...

heating- / calorific values
def: heating value contains the exhaust energy as a deficite; calorific value is the energy contained by the "raw mass"

data taken from Wikipedia: benzine hv 47, cv 43,6 MJ/kg; ethanol hv 29,7, cv 26,8 MJ/kg

to burn 1 kg benzine we need 14,7 kg air (lambda=1) -> heating value 47 MJ, burning ethanol is then 29,7*1,5 = 44,55 MJ .... not really cooler, isn' t it?

calorific value at 14,7kg Luft:
Benzin: 43,6 MJ
alcohol: 26,8*1,5 = 40,2MJ .... even not really cool ;)

the difference between heating value and calorific value is the exhaust energy
benzine: 3,7 MJ
alcohol: (29,7-26,8)*1,5 = 4,35 MJ

that calculation shows NOT a cooler temp, even a higher one, ~ 18% .... e.g. 700°C burning temp -> rising up to 825°C !!!

vaporization energy
(your values B:150 BTU/gal Alc: 359BTU/gal...): nothing really necessary to look at, because if we set them in relation to the heating values (Benzin 125.000 BTU/gal; Alc: 84.000 BTU/gal), they are not more than 0,1 to 0,4% ....

as you can see, there are not any cooling effects caused by vaporization. no, the opposite is even more the problem. we have a rising exhaust temperature


I can see two errors in this.
Firstly: The combustion is more effective on ethanol due to a quicker heat release. This gives more force on the pistons and less losses out in the exhausts. This is a fact since the consumption on ethanol is lower than the theoretical if just the specific heat valuse are compared.
Secondly, and more important:
The vaporization energy is very important.
As described, it goes into cooling the air or surrounding parts of the engine.
Since the exhaust temperature is a direct offset (if no other differences is taken into account as above) of the inlet temperature the exhaust temperature ofcours will be as cooler as the inlet air is.
Therefore we can expect about 100 degrees cooler exhaust gases in the end.

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karlmb skrev:
Volvo-Berti skrev:
@karlmb

i read the pdf you have linked to, and the content of this only points at spare parts to replace origin parts after a crash, e.g., but it is not a regulation that allows to install any parts you want.

passing the emission test (only with allowed parts (like catalyst or fuel pressure regulation)) is one of the basics to drive the car for the next two years. even if you pass the check, and the tester finds a not allowed part, there is no way to get the sticker by the technical inspection authority.



Where do you see the word "crash repairs only"?
Instead I see pictures of engine parts, even a downpipe with a catalyst.
The pdf is about all kinds of repair work on used cars in use in EU.
If you technical inspection authority bans the use of a non-"original" catalyst for instance, do you mean that you don't get the sticker?
So you are not allowed to use the car??
Have there really been cases like that, I would suggest a report to the EU-commission!

hej Karl,
i've written e.g. which means "for example" ;), not more or less. so there is no contradiction to your statement about the legal use of those parts.

but as i wrote this paper is not a general authorization to use any part you want.

apologise for my English, its hard to explain legal circumstances in a foreign language

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Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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karlmb skrev:
I can see two errors in this.
Firstly: The combustion is more effective on ethanol due to a quicker heat release. This gives more force on the pistons and less losses out in the exhausts. This is a fact since the consumption on ethanol is lower than the theoretical if just the specific heat valuse are compared.
Secondly, and more important:
The vaporization energy is very important.
As described, it goes into cooling the air or surrounding parts of the engine.
Since the exhaust temperature is a direct offset (if no other differences is taken into account as above) of the inlet temperature the exhaust temperature ofcours will be as cooler as the inlet air is.
Therefore we can expect about 100 degrees cooler exhaust gases in the end.

hm, i guess we can discuss about this with getting no end.

yeah, the effectivity of ethanol is a little bit higher than benzine, and so the consumption is lower. but there is no direct relation to the exhaust temp.

second:
the vaporization energy is not important, because the volume at each injection is so low!

okay, we have some influences like heating by air compression, but a burn of fuel must be higher, or we do not need any fuel.

the work which is done by the engine is a direct result of burning fuel, not of compression of air. so the exhaust temp must be higher than the inlet air temp. if not, you have invented a new perpetuum mobile

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best wishes from here :)
Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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Volvo-Berti skrev:
second:
the vaporization energy is not important, because the volume at each injection is so low!


Hi Berti,

I think you can't ignore the vaporization energy like you do. The vaporization energy (of petrol) is for example crucial for turbo engines to prevent knocking at max boost/power. If fact at WOT an overly rich mixture is used that increase the vaporization effect just to cool the engine.

In extremely tuned engines the vaporization energy of water (injection) is used to cool down the combustion camber and prevent detonation. When you use a fuel where you get 3-4 times the eveporative energy this is affecting the temperature in the combustion chamber a great deal.

Another thing to remember is that luckily 20-30% (depending on the efficiency of the engine) of the heat from combustion is used to power the car, you can't just assume that all the heat you create will leave the engine through the tailpipe.

E85 obviously improves the efficiency of the engine by about 5% so that allone would indicate lower exhaust temperatures and thus less VSR.

Of coarse there are other factors affecting the EGT, for example ignition timing and whether the fuel burns faster or slower, lean and very rich mixtures can increase EGT because the burn slower.

/Aryan

PS did you realize that you calculated with 100% ethanol and not E85?


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Berti:
Citat:
but as i wrote this paper is not a general authorization to use any part you want.


-No, it is stated that you have to use parts that are of the same or better quality as the original part.
In pratical life this has opened up for non-original catalysts etc.
Can you verify that non-original catalysts are not allowed in Germany?

Citat:
the vaporization energy is not important, because the volume at each injection is so low!



-Yes it is!
As Aryan also explains, an important task for the fuel is to cool the internal parts of the engine!
This is the reason why alcohol fuels are so popular in racing. They cool better.
A well known problem with gaseus fuels, like natural gas, is the bad cooling effect.
Since the cooling effect of alcohols are well known to protect the engine from melting down, one should also make the conclusion that it affects all the gases downstream the injection point.
This means the intake ports, intake valves, liner, piston, ignition plug, exhaustgas, and of course, the exhast gases too.

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discussion point burnign temp:

in the german forum motor-talk.de there are some freaks who did several thermodynamic calculations about this theme. as far as i understand this the exhaust temp under E85 will not be much higher than under benzine. The or one reason for that could be that the exhaust gases have a higher temp capacity, maybe that there will be more water formed by the burning reactions.

so then you could be right by saying that there is not a big temp problem using E85.

N2:
bei 25°C: 1,04 kJ/(kg*K)
ein fast linearer Verlauf, bei 1000K, also 727°C 1,12 kJ/(kg*K)

H2O:
25°C: 1,85 kJ/(kg*K), auch linear mit leichtem Anstieg, bei 1000K 2,28 kJ/(kg*K)

CO2...
25°C: 0,846kJ/(kg*K), bei 1000K 1,24kJ/(kg*K)

Mittelwerte sind in Rahmen der Genauigkeit zulässig...
N2: 1,08; H2O: 2,07; CO2: 1,043

Die Rechnung mit diesen neuen Werten...
Benzin:
11.17kg * 1.12kJ/(kg*K) + 3.15kg * 1,043kJ/(kg*K) + 1.40kg * 2,28kJ/(kg*K) = 19,0kJ/K

x*43600kJ/kg/(19,0kJ/(kg*K)) = 2295*x K
bzw.
x*47000kJ/kg/(19,0kJ/(kg*K)) = 2474*x K

Alk:
6,86kg * 1.12kJ/(kg*K) + 1.91kg * 1,043kJ/(kg*K) + 1.17kg * 2,28kJ/(kg*K) = 12,3kJ/K

x*26800kJ/kg/(12,30kJ/(kg*K)) = 2178*x K
bzw.
x*29700kJ/kg/(12,30kJ/(kg*K)) = 2414*x K

okay, the "authorization" paper:

hm, i guess i did not say exactly what i mean.. it's hard to me to argue in English because of my bad vocabulary....

karl, you can use any part you want when it is marked with an E-symbol. thats the legal way in Germany. what i meant is that this paper is not a permission to use any part you can buy!

maybe the swdish laws allow this, but not the german ones.

i hope i express myself so that you could imagine what i mean :oops:

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Volvo V70 II on 30% E85 (just for starts) and LPG
Berti
http://www.ethanol-tanken.com
http://www.spritmonitor.de/de/detailansicht[url]/349366.html[/url]


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Volvo-Berti skrev:
discussion point burnign temp:

in the german forum motor-talk.de there are some freaks who did several thermodynamic calculations about this theme. as far as i understand this the exhaust temp under E85 will not be much higher than under benzine. The or one reason for that could be that the exhaust gases have a higher temp capacity, maybe that there will be more water formed by the burning reactions.


Another less theoretic way to see that the engine burns cooler is to measure the time it takes before the engine obtains normal working temperature, this takes longer time unfortunately it also takes longer time after start before the catalist starts to work becasue of the lower exhaust temperature. The good thing (for the environement) is that realy cold engines will not start unless you use an engine preheater.

Another obvious proof of lower exhaust temperatures in winter is that the exhaust gasses condensate in the tailpipe (much longer after cold start) and in winter you always see the white steam coming out of the exhaust where petrol/gasoline driven cars have hotter exhaust gasses and no visible condensation of the exhaust gasses.

I think this condensation might shorten the lifespan of the exhaust pipe somewhat (unless it is stainless steel) although you will get hardly get any agressive sulfuric acids in the exhaust gasses from ethanol, but on the other hand the levels (much milder) acetic acids will be much higher from an ethanol engine.

/Aryan


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Berti wrote:
Citat:
karl, you can use any part you want when it is marked with an E-symbol. thats the legal way in Germany. what i meant is that this paper is not a permission to use any part you can buy!


I know of the E-marking.
But I'm not sure that it's needed anymore.
I never said that you can put any part on, just a part that is equal or of better quality and function as the original one.
How to document this is another issue, but I'm convinced that the legal standpoint today is that most parts are seen as good enough in Sweden.
Maybe the German authorities are more strict.
Can you please point us to the authority in charge of this matter in Germany so we can clear it out thoroughly?

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